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So I moved from San Jose CA to Olympia WA. That in and of it self may answer my question. But this church is so old and white and cristian and small and white and old and lame... i miss my home town church! The sermons are crapy. The people have $. There is no out reach to the college campus. Which makes NO SENSE at a school where SO MANY uu kids go.
just complaining.
I don't get it.
just complaining.
I don't get it.
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SF Bay Area
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Thu, November 24, 2005 - 7:35 PMWhat's the city in general like? Is it as integrated as SJ was? Ideally, a congregation should reflect the folks in the surrounding area. Are there many non-whites of a liberal religious bent? (In my area, for instance, many are of the religious literalist bent and wouldn't get anything out of the UU church).
(& with tongue firmly in my cheek: Isn't the title both ageist & racist?)
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Thu, November 24, 2005 - 8:39 PMHe he...
Hi Suzanne!
I would like to share with you my thoughts if I may. The first is to sit down some time with some of the elders and talk with them. You may find out some really spectacular things about them. They may have been involved directly with the civil rights movements or women's rights. They may have even been amongst those wearing flowers in their hair and dancing at Woodstock. Or they may have been a concentration camp victim or fought in WWII. Looking past the vast age differences will allow you to connect on a much deeper level.
When I first arrived at my new fellowship and it became known that I belly dance, I was introduced to a women in her 80's who spent many years living in Afghanistan. This fact is not well known but some forms of belly dance have their roots in ancient birthing rituals that are passed down from mother to daughter. This woman became so respected in the tribal community where she resided that she was invited to witness such a rite which is extremely rare as she was an American and the rite is considered culturally sacred. She shared with me what she saw and experienced. Chances are I will never meet another person in my life who witnessed what she did and she only shared it with me because she felt I would respect the information as I do the culture and had been looking for someone to pass down the information to. One of them might have something very important to share and pass down to you.
The second is that perhaps its time for you to start taking on new roles. I would say...go to the campus and bring the students in yourself. If they see you are a part of the congregation perhaps they will feel comfortable enough to go as well. And...there is no reason why you can't write and conduct sermons of your own and present them. Sounds like they need new ideas along with the new blood. Share your views and ideals...shake things up a little!
If, however, you find resistance or the focus of the place is vastly different from your own views and they are unwilling to change then it might be best to seek out another congregation if it is accessible or see if you can connect with your old place online. Perhaps your old Minister or Reverend would be willing to email you copies of the sermons and keep you abreast of what is going on in San Jose.
Good luck! -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sat, November 26, 2005 - 7:43 PMThank you soooooo much. I am in a new state and new town and my world is a bit upside down. This was what i needed to hear. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sun, November 27, 2005 - 12:52 PMi have to admit that in my 5 years in oly, and at evergreen i only went to church maybe 3 times. but i wouldn't say that was the church's fault. i was lazy and slept til 3 on weekends.
as for old and white and christian, the oly church wasn't nearly as bad as the tiny congregation i'd left behind in NH (where i'd lived 2 years during highschool)
but i think that was some really sound advice, maybe if i hadn't been 15 and hating small town living and hicks i'd have talked with some of the old folks in NH and found some interesting history...
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Tue, March 28, 2006 - 8:26 PMLacey has another flavor of a heartful gathering...it's not as close to evergreen but still a stones throw away...
www.allsouls-uuc-lacey-wa.org/Hom....htm
both have magic and heart...just waiting to be uncovered... best wishes!
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Fri, September 8, 2006 - 5:29 PMSuzanne, I've noticed that the older, paler, wealthier flavor of Unitarian tends to dominate any congregation I've ever been part of. That said, it's still been a great experience learning and sharing with these people, especially while undertaking social justice actions...the combination tends to result in enthusiasm tempered by wisdom. It may be disconcertaing, but once you get past the shock and the discomfort, you'll find a community that has a lot to offer.
Regarding UU college kids, I disagree.
The UU Church, imho, doesn't have the same pulling power as many of the more traditional evangelical religious groups for the college kid demographic. The UU Church offers very few canned answers and there's almost a complete absence of hard and fast rules...I suspect this has limited appeal for younger people who are "searching" and want concrete answers that can be convienently sorted into black and white. The UU church seems to speak more to people who've had some life experience and understand that much more is learned by seeking than having answers handed down. *shrug* That's just an opinion, but it seems to play out in who's represented in the congregations I've been part of.
I just moved and will probably have some readjusting to do with my new congregation. Here's good luck to the both of us. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Mon, September 11, 2006 - 5:04 PMI agree and find value in your statement:
"The UU church seems to speak more to people who've had some life experience and understand that much more is learned by seeking than having answers handed down."
I have found the searching valuable, however, it would be freakin awsome if somebody just knew the answers and could explain this whole confusing thing (life) to me all at once! Not that I am unhappy, I do love to learn and study!
Thanks,
Sonya
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Mon, September 11, 2006 - 5:53 PM"The UU church seems to speak more to people who've had some life experience and understand that much more is learned by seeking than having answers handed down."
In response to this, I am a life long UU, and have always been excited about the lack of "canned answers". I would disagree that to be intereted in searching one must have "some life experience" (yet i'm not sure exactly what this means when you used it - excpet that it felt a bit partonizing to young folks) - especially since out movment has such a vital youth movement of folks engaged in searching...
but this is probably one of the many many reasons why there aren't more young adults in sunday services. Other reasons can be found in the results of reseach done by the Young Adlut and Campus Minitries Office that has been compiling information from youth/young adults about what their relationship to Uu churches is.
And part of it might be that some young adults are looking for alternative types of congregations - like the online Church of the Younger Fellowship - which has gained 325 members in one year. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Mon, September 11, 2006 - 8:53 PMMy daughter, who is 22, says that one reason more of her friends don't come to church is because there aren't more people her age already. She feels a bit young in the congregation, but keeps coming--probably because she's often been one of the few her age.
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Fri, September 15, 2006 - 1:51 PMIf you read my post more carefully you'll see that I qualified my post by saying that it *seems* that the church has more appeal for people with more life experience, especially in how it plays out in the congregations that I've been part of. I chose my words carefully, please do me the honor of not misrepresenting them.
It was not my intention to patronize "young folks" (hell, I'm not even 30, and last I checked, that qualified me as at least younger), but it's a theory to describe what I see to be a lack (to a complete absence) of younger people in the UU Churches that I've been a part of. I'd love to hear more about the information compiled by the Young Adult and Campus Ministries Office as to why there aren't more young people active in the physical congregations. I know that the absence of people my age has affected my attendance at church in the past, and continues to influence my enthusiasm for Sunday services.
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sat, September 16, 2006 - 1:42 PMthere is information on fuuse.com about the study the YACM office is doing. I think you have to sign up as a fuuse.com member (free) to read message boards and posts though.
www.fuuse.com/article.php
also from fuuse.com:
A report from UCLA was released this month detailing college students' search for meaning and purpose. Only .4 percent responded as having UU religious preference but some very interesting things were said of the UU respondents:
"Unitarians earn high scores on Spirituality, Compassionate Self-Concept, Spiritual Quest, Religious Struggle, Charitable Involvement, Ethic of Caring, and Ecumenical Worldview."
"And 42 percent of the Unitarians report frequently having had a spiritual experience while “witnessing the beauty and harmony of nature.”
The summary of the report is a very good read at:
www.spirituality.ucla.edu/repor...x.html
The full article from the UUA web page:
Washington, DC - April 13, 2005
A study released today of over 100,000 first-year college students showed high interest in spirituality, broad tolerance for religious pluralism, and a desire for spiritual growth among students surveyed. The study, conducted by the Higher Education Research Institute, found that large majorities of first-year students have an interest in spirituality (80%) and are searching for meaning and purpose in their lives (76%). In addition, researchers found that 48% of students described their current view of spiritual and religious matters as "seeking," "conflicted," and/or "doubting." Dr. Alexander Astin, co-principal investigator of the study, said that the findings show that college students are engaging in a "serious search for deeper meaning in their lives."
"This study clearly shows a need for a UU presence on college campuses," said Michael Tino, UUA Director of Young Adult and Campus Ministry, "We are in a unique position to engage with students whose spiritual journey has taken them to a place where they value justice as well as pluralism in their religious expressions." Study investigators and project advisors also said that these findings pointed toward current college students being a generation of people who balance spiritual needs with other priorities in their life.
Among the challenges for Unitarian Universalists engaging in campus ministry was the tendency of religious commitment and conservative viewpoints (in theology and politics) to go together. One example was the difference seen in views regarding same-sex marriage, an issue on which the UU congregations have made clear statements for over 30 years. Only 28% of students with high levels of religious engagement, for example, agreed that "same-sex couples should have the right to legal marital status," as opposed to 76% of those with low religious engagement. The results were similar-if less pronounced, when compared to scores on scales measuring spirituality (rather than religiousness).
Of particular note was the study's findings regarding Unitarian Universalist students. According to the study, "students choosing Unitarian [Universalist] as their religious preference produced what is probably the most distinctive pattern of scores, differing significantly from students in general on 11 of the 12 measures." Specifically, of the 19 religious groups broken out in the survey, UU students had the highest response scores on measures of spiritual searching, volunteer service, social justice work, caring for others, and interest in/respect for different religious viewpoints.
In addition, UU respondents joined Buddhist, Hindu, Episcopalian, Jewish and Eastern Orthodox students in a statistical cluster that combined high scores on spiritual searching, justice work and skepticism with low scores on religious commitment and conservative opinions. 36% of UU students responded that integrating spirituality into their lives was "essential" and 42% reported "having had a spiritual experience 'while witnessing the beauty and harmony of nature.'"
More information on this study and the Spiritual Life of College Students project can be found at www.spirituality.ucla.edu/
you could also check out uuyan.org and/or contact the young adult and campus ministries office of the uua! -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sat, September 16, 2006 - 5:18 PMThank you, I do appreciate that.
And out of curiousity, are you the theology student dating Jen?
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Tue, January 2, 2007 - 1:06 PMwow...
kind of percieve this as a negative post....
I dont mind what color or size or age a congregation is...
they have a right to attend church too...
maybe you need to find another church.
obviously something drew you to move here right?
The church reflects the community...I grew up in a old, white church, but that was because that was the community I grew up in...
I also teach Seniors, so maybe I have a different objectivity...
or maybe start your own...or travel to a church in another location....
just a thought
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Tue, January 2, 2007 - 1:10 PMalso, I have to agree with Anne...
sit down and talk to seniors...my dad was a ww2 vet and frankly, he has more to share on what happened 60 years ago and what is happening today...
as far as donations..
my experiences have been the older the persons, the more they are donating...they (okay WE) have the money and frankly I donate allot throughout the year to many many causes. More than my 25 year old niece.
You really should sit down and get to know who and what seniors are all about...
regardless of race etc.
I teach Bellydance to seniors, and frankly, they have more heart and soul than some of their younger counterparts..
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Fri, March 30, 2007 - 4:31 AMoh, let's face it folks. look at the national stats: uu denom is mostly white and is aging. we have a serious problem with retention, thus the promotion of several adolescent and youth rituals and programs by the uua.
we just now got our first biracial pres. we've never had a woman pres. remember the great walkout during the civil rights movement. it wasn't because we were so free of racism that so many black leaders left.
and the journey toward wholeness program, the uu's anti racism initiative, is barely implemented in many congregations, if at all.
i came from a uu church i loved that was very vibrant, but it was very white, very intellectual, very upper middle class. in other words, very much like our denom as a whole. i have visited countless churches all over the country and experienced this same phenomenon. our demographics don't match our values.
i love my denom but unless we realize we have a problem with youth retention and college outreach, and that our ranks don't at all reflect the ethnicity of our cities, we'll never change.
suzanne, you just said out loud what many people think! but many of those same people walk out the door and never come back. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Thu, April 12, 2007 - 10:25 PM"suzanne, you just said out loud what many people think! but many of those same people walk out the door and never come back. "
Thanks
I love my liberal religous faith. We are mostly old and pale. There is nothing wrong with old pale people. I think there is a lcak of folks you fit other descriptions. The was once a project called "mind the gap" but that was years ago and I don't see much minding of it anymore.
We need to be a welcoming comunity for all people at all stages of life. This includes transitory young adults as well as restless youth. There seems to be a huge blind spot in many congregations as well as the uu movement. Young people are awesome and powerful. We bring new ideas and strehen community too.
I want young adults and youth to be acknowlaged and wellcomed in our community. I want our needs and intrest to be repersented.
I don't see that happening much. For example. PCD is having it's District Assembaly soon. There is a workshop on the needs of the young adult community that has been set for the same time as Holly Near's workshop. Way to put priority on young adult programing folks!
This probably sounds much more angry than I feel.
I love my community! I do. Thats why I want it to grow and evolve. I want it to be inclusive and welcoming. I want a place in it too.
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Fri, April 13, 2007 - 9:00 PMI guess because I teach "boomers and beyond" bellydance, I have a different perspective...
boomers are 52% of the population...that means all of us 45-60 and beyond are the majority. I would like to see the bridge between the generations and see more young people working with us older white folks...we have stories to tell and we saw and did alot from the 1950's through the 1970's that really could be beneficial to younger people if they just had the time to stop and listen..but thats just me..
I have a few women who saw world war 2, and my mother was the rosie the rivier crowd. She also lived through the depression and wore rags, when the rag man would come through town and sell rags to the women to make clothes, in 1939. No one had anything that lived through that time, yet somehow they all seem like they were happier than the youth today who literally have it all. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sat, April 14, 2007 - 8:54 PMOne of the perspectives I see most missing in UU churches though is an acceptance of kids and young adults. I'm not a young adult, but I have seen how uncomfortable it can be for young adults in the church. Also, parents are often criticized by boomers and beyond if their children make any noise in the church. This bothers me alot--somehow it's okay to come in late, yell, "What did you say?" during joys and concerns, and so on, but having a child start to get squirmy is not. I agree that we should enjoy talking with each other, and everyone should take time to stop and enjoy others, whether they were in WW2 or are 6 weeks old. My two cents. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sun, April 15, 2007 - 11:04 AMAny congregation is likely to be a reflection of its immediate community or neighborhood. Many people choose their churches in part because of proximity to their homes; however, if the vibe of the place doesn't meet one's spiritual needs, one can look elsewhere. I definitely "shopped" for a spiritual community before settling on regular attendance.
I have a different (and more provocative) perspective on kids and church: I don't think children really get what it's all about, and are usually being coerced to go anyway. Even if they want to go, it's because they'll see their friends, get to play and do crafts, etc. Their prayers are usually as rote as saying the Pledge of Allegiance and other things they do as routine indoctrination.
I'm not opposed to kids being there, provided they can meet certain standards of behavior. But in my view people tend to romanticize kids and their participation. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sun, April 15, 2007 - 11:17 AMI agree with flan... we are in a time now when children are put into adult situations even more. More kids are amongst us in resturants, movie theaters and in general every where. Which is fine, however, it used to be that if a child was having to sit in an adult situation, it was expected the child be quiet and allow the adults to focus on aspects the child has no clue about.
I do think children should be able to attend some sort of service with the parents, but they will not get anything out of listening to an adult who is adressing adults on adult issues. Hence, the special "sunday school" room for children makes more sense. The teacher can then aim the focus of discussion to the kids on issues the kids understand.
I am not a parent, but I do have a trying time with adults who insist on including children in adult conversation.
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sun, April 15, 2007 - 4:30 PM<<I'm not opposed to kids being there, provided they can meet certain standards of behavior. But in my view people tend to romanticize kids and their participation.>>
Right. Better to leave them out in the car. :) -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sun, April 15, 2007 - 7:57 PMDrop 'em off at Chuck E. Cheez. They'll be happier there. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sun, April 15, 2007 - 10:24 PMheard that!!!
I guess we have to start to educate parents again and tell them that children are not "tiny adults" or miniature adults.. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Mon, April 16, 2007 - 4:23 PMor maybe that this isn't ye olde days where children were meant to be seen and not heard. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Mon, April 16, 2007 - 5:23 PMMaybe...the problem is that too often, parents mistakenly believe everyone ELSE wants to hear their kids. Ooop, wrong tribe! I'll pop back over to Childfree By Choice. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Mon, April 16, 2007 - 8:04 PM<<I'll pop back over to Childfree By Choice.>>
Childfree is fine, as long as you respect different choices that others make.
I have one kid who's pushing 13. She's smart, interested in spirituality (and math, computers and C++). She has better social skills than many adults.
So let's not be engaging in family status prejudice... -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Mon, April 16, 2007 - 11:40 PMthe baptist church has an ad campaign in the south that shows young kids having a blast at church painting, and getting very involved. the tag reads: some churches tell your kids think kids should be seen and not heard. we think they should be seen AND heard!
and guess what, it's working. fundamentalists have been excellent at marketing their faith to parents of children and teens and at investing in programming to parents of children and teens. this has paid off well for them. they are bursting at the seams with growth.
as long as the uua denominations continue to fail to invest adequate funds in college outreach, youth ministers, and children's ministers, we will fail to grow.
the uusf is in a one of the most culturally diverse areas in the country and is located in japantown, very close to the tenderloin and not far from the mission. is that cultural diversity reflected in the church's attendance and membership? no! -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Mon, April 16, 2007 - 11:41 PMooops; sorry for the typos in last post. watching cnn as i used to work at virginia tech and my heart is breaking over gun violence.
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Thu, April 19, 2007 - 12:41 AM"I have a different (and more provocative) perspective on kids and church"
Proactive in what sense?
"I don't think children really get what it's all about"
It's all about a spritual comunity that is intergenerational. Since when is there one way of interpriting a uu service or the experence of worship and community? Who cares who gets it the same way you do? It doesn't matter.
"Even if they want to go, it's because they'll see their friends, get to play and do crafts, etc."
Thats why MOST UU's go to church! come on now.
"Their prayers are usually as rote as saying the Pledge of Allegiance and other things they do as routine indoctrination."
How can you be so full of your self to think you can judge the quality of a childs prayer? I grew up in a UU church and we never recited prayers.
"I'm not opposed to kids being there, provided they can meet certain standards of behavior."
Yes you can expect them to behave AS CHILDREN! -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Fri, May 4, 2007 - 11:08 AMI've re-read this thread because a few things were bothering me about it. I think the responses of Flaneuse and SandyFF actually answer Suzanne's original question and the title of the thread.
Flaneuse wrote:
>I have a different (and more provocative) perspective on kids and church: I don't think >children really get what it's all about, and are usually being coerced to go anyway. Even if >they want to go, it's because they'll see their friends, get to play and do crafts, etc. Their >prayers are usually as rote as saying the Pledge of Allegiance and other things they do as >routine indoctrination.
How are kids supposed to "get what it's all about" if they are never in church? This has been part of the issue with having youth and children be separate until they graduate high school and then are told to conform to the standards of the "adult" congregation that is so dissimilar to their experience as children and youth. This is one reason why intergenerational services are so important.
And for the record, UUism is NOT about indoctrination. Or are you talking about another religious tradition?
>I'm not opposed to kids being there, provided they can meet certain standards of >behavior. But in my view people tend to romanticize kids and their participation.
This is true. But if we are espousing the idea that everyone is welcome in our churches, it's important to remember that this includes children too.
SandyFF wrote about putting children in adult situations.
>I agree with flan... we are in a time now when children are put into adult situations even >more. More kids are amongst us in resturants, movie theaters and in general every >where. Which is fine, however, it used to be that if a child was having to sit in an adult >situation, it was expected the child be quiet and allow the adults to focus on aspects the >child has no clue about.
Church is a much different situation than restaurants and movie theatres. Shoud spiritual experiences and discussion only be availalbe to adults? That sounds pretty age-ist to me.
>I do think children should be able to attend some sort of service with the parents, but they >will not get anything out of listening to an adult who is adressing adults on adult issues.
Really? My two nephews have had several discussions about how Pluto is or is not a planet after they overheard adults talking about it when the news came out. They may not have known all of the science behind the discovery, but they had some interesting, well thought out arguments for kids under the age of 5.
>Hence, the special "sunday school" room for children makes more sense. The teacher >can then aim the focus of discussion to the kids on issues the kids understand.
Yet another reason why we don't retain young people past high school. I really thought the idea of putting kids in a separate room and keeping that separation was gone. But apparently it isn't. As long as these types of opinions about kids are around, we will continue to have problems retaining membership among those who are raised in our churches. -
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sat, May 5, 2007 - 4:47 PM"Yet another reason why we don't retain young people past high school. I really thought the idea of putting kids in a separate room and keeping that separation was gone."
Why are you making it sound like church school is some kind of punishment? In all the churches I have attended the children participate with the adults for part of the service, have a story read to them and are ceremoniously sung off to class. No one is forced to leave, if a child prefers to remain with the adults they can. They usually come back and join the adults for refreshments at the end of the service and in the meantime they are with their friends doing something more age appropriate than sitting quietly in a pew listening to someone talk at them. I'd gladly change places with them.
The UU church has been an innovator in church school programs for years, how many other churches teach sexuality in Sunday school? We do an excellent job with our children and young people. We teach them to be independent thinkers and if they decide to stop attending church when they get out of high school so be it. Many come back when they have children of their own.
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Sat, May 5, 2007 - 4:49 PMThis is from a blog my friend writes. I thought this would be a good example from a mother's perspective of babies in church:
"Dangerbaby does not do church well. She talks through the service and I absorb dirty looks from the well meaning white folks seated in our row. It's April Fool's Day, for fuck's sake. The service is about "exploring Unitarian Universalism through Jokes" but we get kicked out anyway. A diplomatic grey hair comes and puts her hands on my shoulders. "I'm so glad to see you here with your baby! If she gets noisy, we have a quiet room up there for you, with toys and everything!" Insinuating that that's where we should be, since the Pablo Neruda Poem the minister was reading over the mic was being horribly interrupted by happy baby noises, cooing and laughing. This is how we explore religion through Jokes. Damn straight. I am sweating with sense of rejection and alienation. We go to the quiet room. Test its soundproofedness. It's cold, sterile, and we can't see the pulpit anyway, so we bounce. Fuck you and your stupid bullshit jokey made up hymns. Fuck you and your sense of propriety. She wasn't even crying.
I tell a friend that I've never felt so excluded in my life as I have since becoming a mother. Fuck the quiet room, and it's soundproof glass cagelike atmosphere. Fuck the stupid stuffed animals you have in there to entertain us, while boxing us off from the congregation of Sunday Worshippers who need to get their spirituality on amidst coughing and program rustling as opposed to joyful babylaughs. Fuck you and your sermon on jokes, when you can't even take a minor disruption in stride. She wasn't even crying.
It's kind of a nice thought, you know. A place where we can go and hear the service without worrying about disturbances, a place where we can lounge around and the baby can chill in her dangerbaby way. But you know, if y'all weren't so uptight we wouldn't need it anyway. If you didn't think that community prayer excluded babies, I wouldn't have to sit in a cold boxed off room behind the people. I know my child. I know what she can handle, and what she can't. I know when to take her out of a situation, and when she's happy. And she was happy. " -
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Service Distrubances??
Sat, May 5, 2007 - 9:24 PMOur church does have a area (with couches and chairs) behind the sanctuary wired for sound and has glassed walls so that if the children get fussy or rambunctious parents can take them out of the sanctuary and still be present for the service.
That said, maybe I'm coming away with the wrong sense of these replies. It feels like the assumption is that I'm going to much more out a service when your babies cry, or your children talk (or run/walk around the sanctuary). The simple truth these kinds of disturbances make it difficult to impossible to pay attention to what the minister (or lay leader) and choir are doing...in short: The Service...which is the point of going to church in the first place. -
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Re: Service Distrubances??
Sat, May 5, 2007 - 10:02 PMI disagree that the "point" of church is "The Service". But perhaps that is for a different discussion all together. -
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Re: Service Distrubances??
Sun, May 6, 2007 - 5:18 AMSetting aside the questions of whether the point of church is the service or not (and the ancillary: If it isn't the point for you, do you get to decide it isn't the point for anyone else?) let's bring up the point of common courtesy: If someone is there for the service, does the disruptive child add to or distract from the service? This is not about a quietly fidgety child, but someone who is actively disrupting the service.
This isn't a double standard: Would you just quietly tolerate adults behind you carrying on a conversation through the service? If children are going to be in adult situations I have no problem expecting them to meet the same standards of conduct as everyone else.
Sunday school isn't about segregating the children away from the adults, but (at it's best) teaching them and giving them the understanding of our shared values. It also gives them a chance to be kids with all the energy that entails. -
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Re: Service Distrubances??
Sun, May 6, 2007 - 10:17 AMSunday School may not be about segregating the children from the adults, but it does so quite effectively.
About the double standard, we have adults talking and whispering through the ENTIRE service sometimes, but people only seem to get upset when a child is fidgety for a few minutes. That's the double standard. Also, we should keep in mind that adults should be more able to consciously control their loudness for an hour, so they should actually be expected to display a higher standard of "quietness." Part of childhood is learning, through experience, when it's appropriate to do certain activities. They way you learn to sit quietly is to go through situations where your parents reinforce that behavior for you. If you never are in that situation, you can never learn the appropriate behavior. -
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Re: Service Distrubances??
Sun, May 6, 2007 - 11:35 AMSunday school is also about teaching the kids what they need to know. Providing that basic religious education is an appropriate activity of the church. Is the suggestion to put them in the church service and have the minister starts preaching so the 9 year olds "get it?" How many adults are going to hang around? What are we expecting the kids to get out of a service geared towards adults? They're not just "little people" who can relate to and understand the references and the language.
There is a double standard if we allow it: If adults are disrupting the service in the same manner, it's appropriate to turn around and politely ask them to be quiet. I actually "shushed" my partner during a service once! Or, if one is uncomfortable doing that getting an usher...they're responsible for more than handing us the program. My minister has, when warranted, made a gentle comment from the pulpit if a phone is allowed to ring or some disruption continues to happen. (A phone quickly silenced isn't worth the effort but continual whispering is...)
I agree with you that it is important to reinforce to kids how what behavior is called for at what time. And part of that training is to be in those situations. But if your child is disturbing the service should a parent just sit there and let it go on? As I said, when kids come into adult "space" they should be expected to act appropriately.
Which brings me back to my earlier question: What are we expecting the kids to get out of a service geared towards adults? -
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Re: Service Distrubances??
Sun, May 6, 2007 - 2:53 PMAs someone who sat through every single church service from the minute I was born (SDA's have their school before the service), I can tell you that I often got much more out of the adult service than the dumbed down stories and horsing around that went on in the Sabbath School. My daughter got very frustrated with her UU Sunday School--hearing about the holidays and holy days of other religions every year gets boring and doesn't address a kid's need to develop his or her own belief system. UU Sunday Schools, in my experience, are little more than babysitting centers with songs and art projects from a different religion each week. -
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Re: Service Distrubances??
Tue, May 22, 2007 - 12:18 PMwow interesting subject...I guess I will give it the double blind test...if I go to a sunday school class and act like an adult and refuse to play, or romp around, I am looked at as "not playing" or "getting with the program", "playing nice" so that is why I like hanging with adults.
ergo..if a child comes into an adult setting and insists on playing...and they are not "getting with the program" then I would have to say, that they should "hang" with their own as well....
I do not get too much out of kids classes, because I hunger for more adult conversation....kids hunger for their level of conversation. ergo...kids should be with kids and adults should be with adults. never the twain shall meet.
By the way, if an adult is more comfortable hanging with children, nothing is preventing them from attending sunday school.
also...why is it a stay at home parent hungers for adult conversation when their spouse comes home? because you can only talk baby talk all day long before hungering for more adult conversation. -
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Re: Service Distrubances??
Tue, May 22, 2007 - 8:59 PMOne problem with your comment--it's okay for the adults to hang with the kids and hunger for that conversation, but not for the kids in reverse? -
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Re: Service Distrubances??
Sat, May 26, 2007 - 11:26 AMI dont know...I dont hunger for kids conversations, (I can categorically say that, since I dont have kids or have ever really dealt with kids except socially) so I dont think I slanted the comment in that direction, but interesting take on your reply though. Noted..
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Re: Service Distrubances??
Sun, May 6, 2007 - 7:22 PM<<Which brings me back to my earlier question: What are we expecting the kids to get out of a service geared towards adults?>>
A motivation to understand more advanced ideas?
Another question is, what do we want the experience of their parents to be? Sure parents have the responsibility to keep the youngins from disrupting a service but I often see the presumption that the simple presence of children will be a disruption...
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Re: why is my church full of old white folks?
Thu, May 24, 2007 - 1:22 PMI go to the San Jose church and I find it to be extremely white and not representative of our local demographics at all. Don't get me wrong, I love our church. But it seems to me that the UU faith attracts a certain type of person- one that is white and well-educated. And I think this sort of person is also more likely to be a freethinker and open to the tenets of our faith. As for the Christian part, it seems like that varies by church and what the minister and congregation want. It's funny how we have such diversity in our beliefs but not so much in other areas.
