From a Unitarian point of view, Should the descendants of slavery in America be given monetary reparation for the years that their ancestors were subjected to American slavery and indentured servitude?
And if so, who should pay, the American government? The current family members who are the direct descendants of slave owners?
And if no reparation should be granted, then why not?
And if so, who should pay, the American government? The current family members who are the direct descendants of slave owners?
And if no reparation should be granted, then why not?
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, February 6, 2005 - 2:25 PMThis is a hard issue, that introduces a slippery slope. For instance, what is the value that we will place on peoples lives who were slaves? Can we ever really make up for it? Also by this time, a single person could have hundreds of descendants, so how would the reparations be divided? I admit that slavery was an awful institution, but I'm not sure that financial reparations can make up for it. Maybe we should instead focus on the evils that we are still commiting, like never following our part of any treaties made with the first peoples of this land.
~Tristin -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, February 7, 2005 - 3:35 PMI have to agree with Tristan's notion that financial reparations cannot make up for slavery. I don't like the whole idea, it smacks too much of an attempt to buy away guilt. I also don't like the idea that I should be responsible for something that was done long ago by others (who in this case weren't even related to me, my ancestors were still in Europe at the time). From a religious viewpoint, it sounds a lot like original sin; Adam was guilty and since you're human you are too. No thanks! I'm with the Buddhists on this one. I like the idea that we all have Buddha-nature, we just need to realize it, not that we're born inherently guilty and thus flawed.
One other thing that I must say is that if people are feeling angry/sad/guilty/whatever about slavery, they can get involved in doing something about it today. A lot of people don't realize it, but slavery is alive and thriving in todays world. In fact, there are more slaves in the world today then there were during the height of the US slave trade in the 19th century. I urge you to become educated and get involved. I found out a lot about this at the 2003 UUGA in Boston. Here's a website from a group the was involved in the presentation. freetheslaves.net/home.php -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, June 3, 2007 - 2:36 PMGreetings,
You are correct in part...financial reparations cannot make up for the genocide of African people. However, what do you suggest should be done to restore the souls of Africans affected by the genocide?
Looking forward to hearing from you
-
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, February 7, 2005 - 2:53 PMBefore continuing, I have to ask a few questions regarding the justification of such behavior.
Where is it the least bit logical to force the descendents of any one group, who have not, in GENERATIONS, performed the behavior they are being asked to pay for?
Why is it the least bit logical for those who have never had a behavior inflicted upon them to recieve some sort of compensation for the said behavior?
How can these reperations be insured NOT to effect the millions of Americans who have in no way ever been involved in slavery?
Are these reperations only for the great-grandchildren of Black slaves or is any race allowed to seek reperations if they were in a state of slavery or indentured servitude?
In what way is this NOT reverse racism?
And if it is reverse racism, how can it be even vaguely justified from a religious stand-point, especially an Unitarian one?
If these questions could be answered to clarify the situation that would be great. They are honest questions.
My father was Cherokee/Chikasaw, born in Oklahoma in 1924. His parents and his grandparents and his great grandparents lived through what could be said to be acts of genocide and racism equal to any other minority, including, in my father's case, having his racial heritage removed from him through a single document (the Dawes Rolls) regardless of his genetics.
I do not expect reperations, nor do I feel even vaguely obligated to pay them. In fact, my gut reaction is to find the idea to be obscene. However, I am also able to entertain the idea that my reasoning is not valid.
Thank you,
Jim Chastain -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, February 7, 2005 - 10:53 PMI think what really underlies the entire issue is the lack of funding going to all formerly opressed/currently opressed communities. I see an issue like this one being raised and think of all the ways that money could be going to better the African American community, money that could be put into low income school districts, education of law enforcement, youth centers, drug rehabilitation, health care, college scholarships, training programs etc. I know these are not solely programs that would benefit the black community, but it would would certainly help everyone, including them.
ZaC
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, February 13, 2005 - 6:23 AMAt least one arguement for reparations is that much of the early economic success of this country was based on slavery. Therefore, everyone benefitted from slavery even if only indirectly. Furthermore, that success and disparity continues today.
And while a token law was passed at the time for to give former slaves a new start (40 acres and a mule) my understanding is that almost no one recieved the benefit of that law...for reasons unknown to me.
For the record, I am not convinced that paying reparations is a good idea or in the public interest. It is more pressing to enable and encourage the folks at the lower end of our economy to participate in our economic prosperity. But that's a different thread.
alex
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, June 3, 2007 - 2:30 PMGreetings:
By and large, reparative measures for the genocide of African People during the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade the ensuing subjugation of the descendants of those slave, is an International Human Rights Issue, as defined by UN Resolution 60/147.
As an African American woman who has found her roots in the Royal Houses of West Africa, I must say this...if my family, the Traditional Rulers of Benin Republic, formerly Dahomey, can take responsibility for their role in the trading of slaves, everyone who participated and benefited from slave labor should as well. The United States did in fact, sign on to this resolution, as did other nations, including France and Portugal. Should the US pay reparations for the genocide of African people? Most certainly! History will bear out the very real fact that but for those African slaves, who worked from "can't see at day til can't see at night", there would be no United States. This nation must deal with the fact that slave labor built this nation and those laborers received no pay, and their descendants were subject to untold horrors.
No my friends, I am not angry. I have reconciled with my own family, have had my ancestral lands returned, have homes, family and dual citizenship, and work hard to educate people across the world on the need for those who benefited from the genocide of African people to atone for their role and for the african descendants to reconcile with this. Monies are not the only reparative measures for Diasporic Africans, but it would be a start. I daresay that should any of you be forced to work with no pay, no promises of pay and when you are awarded "40 acres and a mule" to start over in a strange land, that check was returned NSF!
What happened to Africans in the Diaspora was not slavery...it was genocide. Think of it this way...if you take sex away from my family members, without their consent, that is not slavery..it's rape. If you cut off a man's foot to keep him from running and to instill fear in him and his peers, that is not slavery, that is terrorism. If you hang a man from a noose until he is dead, or cut out the unborn child of a woman while she hangs from a tree, that is not slavery, that is murder. And finally, when you take a people away from their culture, their mores, their ethics, their language, their families and their religion, that most certainly is not slavery...that is the crime of GENOCIDE.
If there are any family members of slave owners here, please understand there is a moral obligation to make right what has been wrong. In today's litigious society, were this situation reversed, there may well be calls to own up to the natural and moral obligation of the family.
How the monies should be paid is secondary to the atonement, rehabilitation and reconciliation of an entire race of people.
Thank you for taking the time to listen. I pray for a fruitful dialogue and education on the issues surrounding "reparations".
May you be blessed
Her Royal Grace, Princess Ademide Adinasse
Daughter of the King of Ketu (Alaketu)
Benin, West Africa
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 4:57 AM<<And if no reparation should be granted, then why not?>>
No.
Because there are zero people alive who were slaves or kept slaves.
The whole idea is silly... -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 9:58 AMHi Genghis,
Don't you think that Baruch Spinoza would suggest calling a deeply held idea arrived at by years of thoughtful contemplation as "silly" inconsistent with the spirit of his statement below?
'Regarding the human issues, do not laugh, do not cry, do not become indignant, understand.'
Baruch Spinoza -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 1:35 PM<<Don't you think that Baruch Spinoza would suggest calling a deeply held idea arrived at by years of thoughtful contemplation as "silly" inconsistent with the spirit of his statement below?>>
I'd call creationism silly....
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 3:25 PMAlisa,
Well thought out and wholly universalist.
Thank you.
Princess Adinasse
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 3:23 PMGreetings,
It appears that your answer is wholly devoid of feelings.
Let me give you an example if I may.
Your grandfather worked for a fledging company which promised to pay him. He however received no monies for his work. Many promises to pay continued, and your grandfather, an immigrant who spoke no English believed in those in positions of authority. The company prospered because of his efforts, and despite that, still no remuneration. He later died at an early age. Later, your father, his son decided to sue the company for back wages. The suit is still pending. Now the case comes to trial, even though your grandfather is no longer alive, YOU and your children are, and under current US law you are entitled to receive any monetary compensation as a result of the efforts of your grandfather, even those he is no longer alive.
Is this silly?
Is the United States Constitution silly?
Blessings
HRG Princess Ademide Adinasse -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 2:51 PMThere's another example of reparations - to Jewish decedents of the Holocaust. International courts recognize the culpability of current generation for the harm done by previous generations.
Before going into the particulars of okay - how much? to whom to be paid by whom details, I think that there are significant discussions to be had about the nature of racism. Racism is so horrible - and I'm a good person. How could I be called racist? To be racist - don't you have to belong to the KKK? Explaining racism to the average white person is like trying to explain water to fish. What water?
I was reading this thread yesterday and started a response, but became so depressed, I had to walk away from it. I'm back because it's important for this discussion to take place - particularly among UU's, whom I trust to think seriously about issues of fairness, justice and the worth and dignity of all people. Also, I'm back because people in our country with dark skin don't have the choice to walk away from issues of racism.
Acknowledging what the previous generations in America did to Africans is much easier than acknowledging how the current generation of white people who live here continue to reap the benefits of those actions - regardless of the date of immigration of one's family. Some of the civil rights laws were passed within my lifetime. Our legal and political system has been in a push-pull struggle to end slavery/keep slavery, share some of the wealth with former slaves/don't share the wealth with former slaves, allow dark skin people to live in certain places/don't allow dark skin people to live there, allow other races to vote/don't allow other races to vote, etc. Education, health care, employment practices, legal protections, water fountain usage, seating on public transportation, etc. was regulated to keep down descendents of former slaves - and anyone who looked like them regardless of date of immigration - in order to hoard resources for white people.
There is not a single city or town in the US that I can think of (your experience may vary) where the majority of African Americans live in a particular part of town. It's not that every African American in that city or town lives in that designated area now, but the majority of that area is inhabited by African Americans. This is not an accident. Historical laws, custom and practice mandated that segregation. Current city and county guidelines determine the upkeep of those streets, sidewalks, streetlights, etc. Where I live, there is a noticeable difference between the city upkeep of the schools, city streets, etc. in traditionally African American neighborhoods as compared with white neighborhoods. This distinction is a hold over from years and years of institutionalized racism - that is systematically a part of every institution, social system, etc. in our culture.
Statistically, African Americans have a shorter life expectancy, less access to health care, less education, more likely arrests, longer prison sentences, less pay for the same job, higher unemployment, etc. These differences all have their origins in our history as a country who prospered on the shoulders of slaves. The current generation of African Americans collectively bear the social, economic, legal and health consequences of the decisions of whites over the last 400 years.
As laws come into existence to eliminate the most obvious parts of institutionalized racism, more subtle discrimination takes over. Racism is embedded in American culture. By virtue of being more subtle, it is less easily regulated and fought by legal measures. Heart to heart discussions need to be taking place. It's important to study what has occurred, what are the consequences, what precedents exist in the law and what would be the most equitable means of restitution. Too much of our history as a country has been based on what powerful people could get away with. We need to look beyond what we could get away with and look at what would result in the most significant form of justice.
I don't think it is as easy giving money - though I think there has be to be a financial component.
Alisa -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 6:31 PM<<Acknowledging what the previous generations in America did to Africans is much easier than acknowledging how the current generation of white people who live here continue to reap the benefits of those actions - regardless of the date of immigration of one's family. Some of the civil rights laws were passed within my lifetime.>>
But don't black folks in the US now reap some of those same benefits? Could they reap more?
<<I don't think it is as easy giving money - though I think there has be to be a financial component.>>
As long as it's a "here's a hand up so you can succeed but only you can decide to succeed' and not a "here's $1,000, now go away and shut up", thing.
But I don't think it should be focused on one particular ethnic group. Take my family: they're scottish and/or irish and came here after slavery ended. In the past 20 years or so, all the negative social stereotypes put down to black folks have become their issues as well
(e.g., predominately single parent families), not taking advantage of educational opportunities, etc.
There are a lot of groups here in the US that need to understand that they can and should work towards success because it's possible. -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 8:36 PMMy background is Irish. It doesn't come close to an entrenched history of slavery.
I agree that a money thing is not "THE ANSWER". That's why I think it is our responsibility to have these tough heart to heart conversations. More than money, I think that real reconciliation is necessary.
Yes, other ethnic groups have been mistreated. Even slavery, in my opinion does not compare to invading a continent and killing off the current residents. With Native American people, the same harsh systematic abuse has been in place - perhaps the only abuse America has carried out longer than the harsh treatment of people of African descent.
In the early 1900's, employers would post job openings - Now Hiring - and post what they would pay to various ethnic groups. Irish paid this much, Negros paid this much, Italians paid this much, etc. When racism was legally santioned, it was much easier to identify. The laws inacted to combat racism are good, but they have also pushed racism below the surface. It is more subtle, sneakier now. Remember the news reports showing integration protests in the south in the 1960's? The angry rage on the faces of the white people yelling curses at the African Americans? No one would be caught on film doing that now. However, I believe that there are people who still hold decision making power in this country who still feel this way about not only African Americans, but also other ethnic groups (particularly Mexicans and people from the Middle East) , GLBT people, etc.
Still, I think it is right that Germany, Switzerland and others have paid reparations to Jews. I think it would be good for America to pay reparations to African Americans - the difficulty is in the details.
None of the reparation discussion assumes that monetary hand outs replace hard work on the part of the individual to make a good life for him/herself. That's not the point. Just like when damages are awarded in court, the judge does not caution the plaintiff on how to spend the money.
Perhaps the reparations could be negotiated into being spent on programs - however, I doubt that recipients would agree to do so without a great deal of negotiation within the recipient community. Interesting possibilities.
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Thu, June 7, 2007 - 7:16 AM<<My background is Irish. It doesn't come close to an entrenched history of slavery.>>
True. But if the problems are similar, maybe the real causes (and solutions) are, too.
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sat, June 9, 2007 - 11:01 PMSlavery has been declared a "crime against humanity". Please tell me how you believe Africans in America reap the same benefits as a European American? Did Lincoln tell your ancestors, in a supposed "emancipation proclamation" they were "separate but not equal". Do you not think the stigma of Slavery transcends til today?
Peace and blessings
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sat, June 9, 2007 - 10:54 PMExcellent point of view.
-
-
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 10:21 PMIf america should pay then so should africa. didnt their own people sell them into slavery. honestly im tired of all the you owe me and the white man keeps me down crap. because thats what it is. maybe back in the day when african americans couldnt drink out of the same fountain as a white person, i could see it. who is still alive that owned a slave. if there is someone they are probably to old to use the restroom. granted not every person from a minority is is complaining and there are some who are trying to make a difference. but what is the money gonna do. get someone a new car, is that seriously going to make up for the treatment of your great grandparents and so on. are you going to give it to them, seeing as you didnt work in a field and you didnt get kidnapped and taken away from your home. it wont change anything. and it sounds like selfish greed.
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sat, June 9, 2007 - 10:58 PMAfrica, specifically, Benin Republic, where my father is a King, we do plan to do what we can to reconcile and restore the descendants of the trans-atlantic slave genocide. We realize our role in the selling of our people and are atoning as we speak. Benin, at my request, is forming the Ouidah Truth and Reconciliation Commission to hold hearings on this injustice and postulate remedies. At this time, we are offering dual citizenship and land reserves to Diasporic Africans whose ancestors were sold.
The weight of this issue continues to rest on the shoulders of the European nations who went looking for bodies to harvest their fields and build their nations.
Please feel free to view UN Resolution 60/147.
Peace and blessings
HRG Princess Ademide Adinasse
daughter of the King of Ketu
Benin, West Africa
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, June 10, 2007 - 11:05 AMThe greater question is, who will pay reparations on the souls?
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, June 10, 2007 - 11:34 AM<<Africa, specifically, Benin Republic, where my father is a King>>
Uh, question. How is your father a King when Benin doesn't have a monarchy?
www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/6761.htm
www.traveldocs.com/bj/govern.htm
I'm just asking... -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 12:35 PMhow about the countrys that sold their own people into slavery pay up?...some countrys over the pond profited, and no one is going to them for money..oh thats right, those countrys have no money.
also, totally support anyone who wants to get their DNA analysed and banked to find out where they are really from....the gene pool in the U.S. has been mixed over and over in the last 200 years...
look at the south, Louisianna, where they have people (creoles) mixed with many races..
the spanish, french etc all kept slaves, will France and Spain or Mexico be paying reparations as well?
-
-
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 12:31 PMconsidering that NONE of us, including the slaves and the slave owners are even alive or have been dead for over 100 years...huh? What about any one of us who had ancestors who were slaves that were not black, howabout the chinese?, how about reperations for my family who had to share crop durring the dust bowl?, how about the slaves from mexico and canada...no sorry...
I dont think you can make things right, because the people that are alive now are benefiting from the death of their ancestors, and all of us are being punished. In otherwords its redistribution of wealth, money is not made in machines, any money that is paid out is coming from the tax payers........ -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 3:25 PMI am happy to report that although this is a complicated subject - and it is easy to avoid it by trying to distance oneself, it is not being ignored by the UUA. In fact, there are many workshops planned that addresses this very issue at GA next week. When I pulled up the UUA website a minute ago, there was an introduction to an essay written by a Unitarian Universalist minister. I clicked on it and read the full text detailing his journey into his past. To his shock, he found that he had relatives over 200 years ago who owned slaves and he believes one traded slaves. You can read his essay here: www.uua.org/news/newssub...s/23111.shtml
Reconciliation to historical misdeeds toward one group does not negate or diminish the misdeeds done to another group. No group in the US has been mistreated to the extent of Native Americans and African Americans. Does that mean that the US has been ethical hosts to all other groups? NO. Does it mean that we should ignore all misdeeds to other groups? NO. But, if a person slapped one person and killed another, it seems logical to address the the most horrific act first.
I'm fascinated by the idea that several vocal people on this list seem most interested in the money. If money were not a part of the conversation, would those same people be able to thoughtfully engage in what reconciliation means? I hope so, because we need everyone to be engaged in the conversation. The subject isn't going away. The UUA is making it clear that UU's take this subject seriously and intend to process how our country's wealth was made and ends up in a very few hands. It means taking inventory personally and collectively - being brave enough to look at hard truths. Check out the UUA website and the GA program. It is divided into multiple PDF files. I would recommend looking at the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday schedules to see what the workshops offered are. There's a list for the first few pages and then individual workshop write-ups that tell what the workshop will focus on, and a little background on the speaker. That link is: www.uua.org/events/gener...g/18214.shtml
It takes a lot of courage to be able to look at our individual and collective past. During that very thoughtful process, I trust that we as a religious body, as congregations and as a country will come to some form of concensus on what our best course is. In my opinion, it won't come from personally distinancing ourselves, making excuses or sweeping away the issue. We've been doing that for a long time and it's not working.
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 13, 2007 - 4:48 AMthe UU church in nashville (where i attended and volunteered) hosted a white privilege conference with fisk university. i'll try to find the material and post here.
also, the place where i work just had a seminar on white privilege and it was very sobering.
i'm white and benefit from years of exploitation of other's labor even if i personally don't agree with it.
so yes, i'm for reparations. of course, money can't make up for exploitation but we can try. that is what the idea of restitution can mean. that we pay a price for something from which we should not have benefitted. how can we repay someone for our ancestors raping them, stealing their children and then denying it all? there are no white people in the us who have not benefitted from our racist history. if you think you haven't then you're operating under the biggest white privilege of all: denial!
in this way, i also believe that native americans deserve reparations for all the euros taking the land they were living on which they understood could only truly belong to mother earth.
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 13, 2007 - 10:21 AMFirst let me state that I am for reparations for both Native Americans and African Americans. This aside...I think the matter is very complicated and needs to be evaluated not only from economics and emotions but from social, political, educational, psychological, statistical and humanitarian perspectives.
To view from one aspect only does not do the subject justice nor does it benefit anyone. There is no doubt that white privledge exists but, having said that, privledge has been given to other 'ethnicities' due to the contributions of both Native Americans and African Americans. As well...African Americans have benefitted from the losses of Native Americans and vice-versa. We have vast diversity in the US where there exist peoples who are mixes of various ethnicities which complicates the situation worse, not to mention those that have arrived on our soil at various points in history. Not everyone who is categorized as white owned a slave and not every African American had a relative who was a slave. Keeping in mind that categorizations have been arbitrary and have changed over history for various reasons.
My personal reasons for support of reparations have more to do with the knowledge that contributions were made and never acknowledged AND that disparity still exists where African Americans and Native Americans continue to suffer from inequality. We can set blame on a certain group of people or we can acknowledge that history (whther here or elsewhere) has been cruel to all of our ancestors and our ancestors have all been cruel to others whether it was owning a slave, participation in the crusades and inquisitions or holocausts. And then...we stop pointing fingers at someone's color of their skin and, instead do something about it.
Now...delving out money may seem a fair solution to some, however, one has to look at the current population in the US of those who claim African American heritage and native American heritage and then take a close look at costs. We can disgregard the financial aspect as irrelevant but the reality exists that the costs to justify could be astronimical given the population and something, somewhere is going to suffer. We can assume a 'Robin Hood' mentality but we would have to disregard personal experience, ethnicity, and accountability.
I don't know what the best solution is, perhaps it is education and opportunities. Money would be fleeting but empowerment thru education and opportunities is something that would last a lifetime and be able to be carried thru generations. Is this something the US does now?...yes...to a degree.... and this is where I feel we can improve greatly.
Guys...we really need to stop with the black vs. white theme or we continue to perpetuate a divide and that doesn't do anyone any good. As Unitarians we promote the grays but too often fail to see them ourselves. -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 13, 2007 - 10:03 PMI think the easy solution is everyone who wants to support this legislation, pull out their check books and write a check. Treat it as a tax deductable private charity.....the money is coming from yours and my pockets anyway...
then people can file claims for their money.
I personally am not going to write a check since I am only 2nd generation american and my ancestors had nothing to do with the slave trade...
in fact I bet over 50-75% of the people in america can fit into this category and shouldnt have to put their money in that pile. -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 13, 2007 - 10:59 PMWhite people who have immigrated to this country benefit by preferential treatment for white people. White people who immigrate to the US 10 years from now will also benefit from the white privilege begun with the African slave history of this country. It's part of the deal - like it or not - when immigrating to this country. Immigrants don't get to check off any boxes about which part of the culture he or she wants part of and which ones he or she doesn't. Spend some time getting to understand what is meant by the term "white privilege".
It's really easy to ignore issues, sweep them under the rug, distance oneself, or bring up a lot of other issues to mask racism because it is unpleasant. If I wanted to, I could think of 50 reasons why "I" shouldn't have to do anything. That won't solve anything and is, in my opinion, the basis of many problems with racism in this country - an overt denial that it exists, that all of us with white skin benefit from it, and that we are collectively responsible for addressing it -IF- we want justice, -IF- we want things to improve.
IF we don't want anything to change - well, I think we are really good at that part.
The UUA is focusing a lot of energy on this issue. Other liberal organizations are, as well. It would probably benefit folks to read up on what's happening and what some of the points of the conversation are on a national basis. -
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 3:34 PMAlisa, I think you're missing the point of what Sandy is saying. Attaching personal responsibility to a societal problem like slavery is something she and her ancestors did not participate in so she doesn't feel she should be forced to pay reparations. That's not turning a blind eye to white privilege it's a statement of fact. The same is true for me. Up until my mother and father moved to this country they lived outside Montreal. As far as I know, there were no slaves in Canada so I don't feel that I should be made to pay for the crimes of others. That doesn't mean I don't understand that I get the benefit of being able to rent any apartment I want, get any job I apply for, and get to walk into a department store and not get followed around by the staff because someone thinks I might attempt to steal something. I understand the white privilege I benefit from each and every day. I also understand that those who committed a crime should be the ones to make amends not parties who were not involved.
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 9:28 AMThanks for posting, Kim. I do understand that this is the point of Sandy, you, Douglas and others. I strongly disagree with this position.
My point that it is similar to Germans and Swiss, (and Italian, I think -but could be wrong) who have nationally been held accountable for killing and stealing the possessions of Jews during WW ll. Every single German, Swiss, Italian person was not in uniform. Every single one of them did not point a gun at a Jewish person. However, everyone of them (who were not Jewish) benefited by the killing and stealing of everything that Jewish people had. The entire country was held up by the international community to be culpable. To say - well my family just recently immigrated was considered ludicrous to the international community. Also, a generation or so had passed.
Whereas it sounds like a really rational exception - not me, I didn't do anything - it sounds like splitting hairs to the rest of the international community and to people who are still oppressed in this country. To suggest this argument is an example of white privilege in my opinion.
It sounds like, "I didn't do anything to cause white privilege because of recent immigration history, though I benefit from it" somehow excuses benefiting from the oppression of others?! All of us who are white are all part of white privilege - it is involuntary. The oppression of African-Americans did not end with slavery.
Similarly, it is not a choice for non-white skinned people to avoid being harmed by white privilege. Whether a person of color immigrated recently or not, the cop pulling them over for "driving while black" is basing that decision on color of skin - not on date of immigration, ancestor slave status, or any other technicality. As a white driver, happy that I wasn't the one stopped. I could drive by - not my problem. My family immigrated within the last 100 years.
Sandy, Kim others - have you looked at the UUA website? Have you done any research on what white privilege means as a political sense? Or are you speaking from your own personal experience and understanding of these terms? I'm not saying that you are wrong - I am saying that there is an intense discussion going on within the UUA and nationally that is certainly more articulate than I am. It might be interesting to you to hear what our religious movement has to say.
The UUA recently sent out a 25 page Adobe Acrobat document to all delegates of the 2007 GA addressing the racist/ageist events at the Ft.Worth GA in 2005. If anyone wants to see it, I'll send it to you. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 1:30 PM"Sandy, Kim others - have you looked at the UUA website? Have you done any research on what white privilege means as a political sense? Or are you speaking from your own personal experience and understanding of these terms? I'm not saying that you are wrong - I am saying that there is an intense discussion going on within the UUA and nationally that is certainly more articulate than I am. It might be interesting to you to hear what our religious movement has to say. "
Alisa,
I will look into the UUA website and read what the UUA's stance is on this issue but just because I identify myself as a UU that does not mean that I espouse each and every viewpoint of the UUA. After all being a UU is about hearing different viewpoints and arriving at our own conclusions and truths, is it not? For the record, yes, I feel that this point in time I have a pretty good understanding of what white privilege means across the board. I've done research in a graduate level class on teaching in urban settings, done extensive reading on the subject (Jonathan Kozol and Beverly Daniel Tatum to name a few), taught in an elementary school that was extremely diverse where I had to get used to being in the minority as a white woman, and I live and work in a city where African Americans are the majority and many live in conditions of extreme poverty because of a public education system that has failed them in every sense of the word. So know I don't know all there is to know about white privilege at this point, but I have a pretty good idea.
-
-
Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, June 18, 2007 - 11:02 PMpersonal experiences...many as a matter of fact..
I do not think religious movements have a place in politics..you know..that "separation of church and state" kind of thing?
so maybe the question should be posed..."do you or do you not want separation of church and state?" unless it helps your cause?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-