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From a Unitarian point of view, Should the descendants of slavery in America be given monetary reparation for the years that their ancestors were subjected to American slavery and indentured servitude?
And if so, who should pay, the American government? The current family members who are the direct descendants of slave owners?
And if no reparation should be granted, then why not?
And if so, who should pay, the American government? The current family members who are the direct descendants of slave owners?
And if no reparation should be granted, then why not?
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, February 6, 2005 - 2:25 PMThis is a hard issue, that introduces a slippery slope. For instance, what is the value that we will place on peoples lives who were slaves? Can we ever really make up for it? Also by this time, a single person could have hundreds of descendants, so how would the reparations be divided? I admit that slavery was an awful institution, but I'm not sure that financial reparations can make up for it. Maybe we should instead focus on the evils that we are still commiting, like never following our part of any treaties made with the first peoples of this land.
~Tristin -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, February 7, 2005 - 3:35 PMI have to agree with Tristan's notion that financial reparations cannot make up for slavery. I don't like the whole idea, it smacks too much of an attempt to buy away guilt. I also don't like the idea that I should be responsible for something that was done long ago by others (who in this case weren't even related to me, my ancestors were still in Europe at the time). From a religious viewpoint, it sounds a lot like original sin; Adam was guilty and since you're human you are too. No thanks! I'm with the Buddhists on this one. I like the idea that we all have Buddha-nature, we just need to realize it, not that we're born inherently guilty and thus flawed.
One other thing that I must say is that if people are feeling angry/sad/guilty/whatever about slavery, they can get involved in doing something about it today. A lot of people don't realize it, but slavery is alive and thriving in todays world. In fact, there are more slaves in the world today then there were during the height of the US slave trade in the 19th century. I urge you to become educated and get involved. I found out a lot about this at the 2003 UUGA in Boston. Here's a website from a group the was involved in the presentation. freetheslaves.net/home.php -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, June 3, 2007 - 2:36 PMGreetings,
You are correct in part...financial reparations cannot make up for the genocide of African people. However, what do you suggest should be done to restore the souls of Africans affected by the genocide?
Looking forward to hearing from you
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, February 7, 2005 - 2:53 PMBefore continuing, I have to ask a few questions regarding the justification of such behavior.
Where is it the least bit logical to force the descendents of any one group, who have not, in GENERATIONS, performed the behavior they are being asked to pay for?
Why is it the least bit logical for those who have never had a behavior inflicted upon them to recieve some sort of compensation for the said behavior?
How can these reperations be insured NOT to effect the millions of Americans who have in no way ever been involved in slavery?
Are these reperations only for the great-grandchildren of Black slaves or is any race allowed to seek reperations if they were in a state of slavery or indentured servitude?
In what way is this NOT reverse racism?
And if it is reverse racism, how can it be even vaguely justified from a religious stand-point, especially an Unitarian one?
If these questions could be answered to clarify the situation that would be great. They are honest questions.
My father was Cherokee/Chikasaw, born in Oklahoma in 1924. His parents and his grandparents and his great grandparents lived through what could be said to be acts of genocide and racism equal to any other minority, including, in my father's case, having his racial heritage removed from him through a single document (the Dawes Rolls) regardless of his genetics.
I do not expect reperations, nor do I feel even vaguely obligated to pay them. In fact, my gut reaction is to find the idea to be obscene. However, I am also able to entertain the idea that my reasoning is not valid.
Thank you,
Jim Chastain -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, February 7, 2005 - 10:53 PMI think what really underlies the entire issue is the lack of funding going to all formerly opressed/currently opressed communities. I see an issue like this one being raised and think of all the ways that money could be going to better the African American community, money that could be put into low income school districts, education of law enforcement, youth centers, drug rehabilitation, health care, college scholarships, training programs etc. I know these are not solely programs that would benefit the black community, but it would would certainly help everyone, including them.
ZaC
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, February 13, 2005 - 6:23 AMAt least one arguement for reparations is that much of the early economic success of this country was based on slavery. Therefore, everyone benefitted from slavery even if only indirectly. Furthermore, that success and disparity continues today.
And while a token law was passed at the time for to give former slaves a new start (40 acres and a mule) my understanding is that almost no one recieved the benefit of that law...for reasons unknown to me.
For the record, I am not convinced that paying reparations is a good idea or in the public interest. It is more pressing to enable and encourage the folks at the lower end of our economy to participate in our economic prosperity. But that's a different thread.
alex
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, June 3, 2007 - 2:30 PMGreetings:
By and large, reparative measures for the genocide of African People during the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade the ensuing subjugation of the descendants of those slave, is an International Human Rights Issue, as defined by UN Resolution 60/147.
As an African American woman who has found her roots in the Royal Houses of West Africa, I must say this...if my family, the Traditional Rulers of Benin Republic, formerly Dahomey, can take responsibility for their role in the trading of slaves, everyone who participated and benefited from slave labor should as well. The United States did in fact, sign on to this resolution, as did other nations, including France and Portugal. Should the US pay reparations for the genocide of African people? Most certainly! History will bear out the very real fact that but for those African slaves, who worked from "can't see at day til can't see at night", there would be no United States. This nation must deal with the fact that slave labor built this nation and those laborers received no pay, and their descendants were subject to untold horrors.
No my friends, I am not angry. I have reconciled with my own family, have had my ancestral lands returned, have homes, family and dual citizenship, and work hard to educate people across the world on the need for those who benefited from the genocide of African people to atone for their role and for the african descendants to reconcile with this. Monies are not the only reparative measures for Diasporic Africans, but it would be a start. I daresay that should any of you be forced to work with no pay, no promises of pay and when you are awarded "40 acres and a mule" to start over in a strange land, that check was returned NSF!
What happened to Africans in the Diaspora was not slavery...it was genocide. Think of it this way...if you take sex away from my family members, without their consent, that is not slavery..it's rape. If you cut off a man's foot to keep him from running and to instill fear in him and his peers, that is not slavery, that is terrorism. If you hang a man from a noose until he is dead, or cut out the unborn child of a woman while she hangs from a tree, that is not slavery, that is murder. And finally, when you take a people away from their culture, their mores, their ethics, their language, their families and their religion, that most certainly is not slavery...that is the crime of GENOCIDE.
If there are any family members of slave owners here, please understand there is a moral obligation to make right what has been wrong. In today's litigious society, were this situation reversed, there may well be calls to own up to the natural and moral obligation of the family.
How the monies should be paid is secondary to the atonement, rehabilitation and reconciliation of an entire race of people.
Thank you for taking the time to listen. I pray for a fruitful dialogue and education on the issues surrounding "reparations".
May you be blessed
Her Royal Grace, Princess Ademide Adinasse
Daughter of the King of Ketu (Alaketu)
Benin, West Africa
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 4:57 AM<<And if no reparation should be granted, then why not?>>
No.
Because there are zero people alive who were slaves or kept slaves.
The whole idea is silly... -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 9:58 AMHi Genghis,
Don't you think that Baruch Spinoza would suggest calling a deeply held idea arrived at by years of thoughtful contemplation as "silly" inconsistent with the spirit of his statement below?
'Regarding the human issues, do not laugh, do not cry, do not become indignant, understand.'
Baruch Spinoza -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 1:35 PM<<Don't you think that Baruch Spinoza would suggest calling a deeply held idea arrived at by years of thoughtful contemplation as "silly" inconsistent with the spirit of his statement below?>>
I'd call creationism silly....
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 3:25 PMAlisa,
Well thought out and wholly universalist.
Thank you.
Princess Adinasse
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 3:23 PMGreetings,
It appears that your answer is wholly devoid of feelings.
Let me give you an example if I may.
Your grandfather worked for a fledging company which promised to pay him. He however received no monies for his work. Many promises to pay continued, and your grandfather, an immigrant who spoke no English believed in those in positions of authority. The company prospered because of his efforts, and despite that, still no remuneration. He later died at an early age. Later, your father, his son decided to sue the company for back wages. The suit is still pending. Now the case comes to trial, even though your grandfather is no longer alive, YOU and your children are, and under current US law you are entitled to receive any monetary compensation as a result of the efforts of your grandfather, even those he is no longer alive.
Is this silly?
Is the United States Constitution silly?
Blessings
HRG Princess Ademide Adinasse -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 2:51 PMThere's another example of reparations - to Jewish decedents of the Holocaust. International courts recognize the culpability of current generation for the harm done by previous generations.
Before going into the particulars of okay - how much? to whom to be paid by whom details, I think that there are significant discussions to be had about the nature of racism. Racism is so horrible - and I'm a good person. How could I be called racist? To be racist - don't you have to belong to the KKK? Explaining racism to the average white person is like trying to explain water to fish. What water?
I was reading this thread yesterday and started a response, but became so depressed, I had to walk away from it. I'm back because it's important for this discussion to take place - particularly among UU's, whom I trust to think seriously about issues of fairness, justice and the worth and dignity of all people. Also, I'm back because people in our country with dark skin don't have the choice to walk away from issues of racism.
Acknowledging what the previous generations in America did to Africans is much easier than acknowledging how the current generation of white people who live here continue to reap the benefits of those actions - regardless of the date of immigration of one's family. Some of the civil rights laws were passed within my lifetime. Our legal and political system has been in a push-pull struggle to end slavery/keep slavery, share some of the wealth with former slaves/don't share the wealth with former slaves, allow dark skin people to live in certain places/don't allow dark skin people to live there, allow other races to vote/don't allow other races to vote, etc. Education, health care, employment practices, legal protections, water fountain usage, seating on public transportation, etc. was regulated to keep down descendents of former slaves - and anyone who looked like them regardless of date of immigration - in order to hoard resources for white people.
There is not a single city or town in the US that I can think of (your experience may vary) where the majority of African Americans live in a particular part of town. It's not that every African American in that city or town lives in that designated area now, but the majority of that area is inhabited by African Americans. This is not an accident. Historical laws, custom and practice mandated that segregation. Current city and county guidelines determine the upkeep of those streets, sidewalks, streetlights, etc. Where I live, there is a noticeable difference between the city upkeep of the schools, city streets, etc. in traditionally African American neighborhoods as compared with white neighborhoods. This distinction is a hold over from years and years of institutionalized racism - that is systematically a part of every institution, social system, etc. in our culture.
Statistically, African Americans have a shorter life expectancy, less access to health care, less education, more likely arrests, longer prison sentences, less pay for the same job, higher unemployment, etc. These differences all have their origins in our history as a country who prospered on the shoulders of slaves. The current generation of African Americans collectively bear the social, economic, legal and health consequences of the decisions of whites over the last 400 years.
As laws come into existence to eliminate the most obvious parts of institutionalized racism, more subtle discrimination takes over. Racism is embedded in American culture. By virtue of being more subtle, it is less easily regulated and fought by legal measures. Heart to heart discussions need to be taking place. It's important to study what has occurred, what are the consequences, what precedents exist in the law and what would be the most equitable means of restitution. Too much of our history as a country has been based on what powerful people could get away with. We need to look beyond what we could get away with and look at what would result in the most significant form of justice.
I don't think it is as easy giving money - though I think there has be to be a financial component.
Alisa -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 6:31 PM<<Acknowledging what the previous generations in America did to Africans is much easier than acknowledging how the current generation of white people who live here continue to reap the benefits of those actions - regardless of the date of immigration of one's family. Some of the civil rights laws were passed within my lifetime.>>
But don't black folks in the US now reap some of those same benefits? Could they reap more?
<<I don't think it is as easy giving money - though I think there has be to be a financial component.>>
As long as it's a "here's a hand up so you can succeed but only you can decide to succeed' and not a "here's $1,000, now go away and shut up", thing.
But I don't think it should be focused on one particular ethnic group. Take my family: they're scottish and/or irish and came here after slavery ended. In the past 20 years or so, all the negative social stereotypes put down to black folks have become their issues as well
(e.g., predominately single parent families), not taking advantage of educational opportunities, etc.
There are a lot of groups here in the US that need to understand that they can and should work towards success because it's possible. -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 8:36 PMMy background is Irish. It doesn't come close to an entrenched history of slavery.
I agree that a money thing is not "THE ANSWER". That's why I think it is our responsibility to have these tough heart to heart conversations. More than money, I think that real reconciliation is necessary.
Yes, other ethnic groups have been mistreated. Even slavery, in my opinion does not compare to invading a continent and killing off the current residents. With Native American people, the same harsh systematic abuse has been in place - perhaps the only abuse America has carried out longer than the harsh treatment of people of African descent.
In the early 1900's, employers would post job openings - Now Hiring - and post what they would pay to various ethnic groups. Irish paid this much, Negros paid this much, Italians paid this much, etc. When racism was legally santioned, it was much easier to identify. The laws inacted to combat racism are good, but they have also pushed racism below the surface. It is more subtle, sneakier now. Remember the news reports showing integration protests in the south in the 1960's? The angry rage on the faces of the white people yelling curses at the African Americans? No one would be caught on film doing that now. However, I believe that there are people who still hold decision making power in this country who still feel this way about not only African Americans, but also other ethnic groups (particularly Mexicans and people from the Middle East) , GLBT people, etc.
Still, I think it is right that Germany, Switzerland and others have paid reparations to Jews. I think it would be good for America to pay reparations to African Americans - the difficulty is in the details.
None of the reparation discussion assumes that monetary hand outs replace hard work on the part of the individual to make a good life for him/herself. That's not the point. Just like when damages are awarded in court, the judge does not caution the plaintiff on how to spend the money.
Perhaps the reparations could be negotiated into being spent on programs - however, I doubt that recipients would agree to do so without a great deal of negotiation within the recipient community. Interesting possibilities.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Thu, June 7, 2007 - 7:16 AM<<My background is Irish. It doesn't come close to an entrenched history of slavery.>>
True. But if the problems are similar, maybe the real causes (and solutions) are, too.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sat, June 9, 2007 - 11:01 PMSlavery has been declared a "crime against humanity". Please tell me how you believe Africans in America reap the same benefits as a European American? Did Lincoln tell your ancestors, in a supposed "emancipation proclamation" they were "separate but not equal". Do you not think the stigma of Slavery transcends til today?
Peace and blessings
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sat, June 9, 2007 - 10:54 PMExcellent point of view.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 10:21 PMIf america should pay then so should africa. didnt their own people sell them into slavery. honestly im tired of all the you owe me and the white man keeps me down crap. because thats what it is. maybe back in the day when african americans couldnt drink out of the same fountain as a white person, i could see it. who is still alive that owned a slave. if there is someone they are probably to old to use the restroom. granted not every person from a minority is is complaining and there are some who are trying to make a difference. but what is the money gonna do. get someone a new car, is that seriously going to make up for the treatment of your great grandparents and so on. are you going to give it to them, seeing as you didnt work in a field and you didnt get kidnapped and taken away from your home. it wont change anything. and it sounds like selfish greed.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sat, June 9, 2007 - 10:58 PMAfrica, specifically, Benin Republic, where my father is a King, we do plan to do what we can to reconcile and restore the descendants of the trans-atlantic slave genocide. We realize our role in the selling of our people and are atoning as we speak. Benin, at my request, is forming the Ouidah Truth and Reconciliation Commission to hold hearings on this injustice and postulate remedies. At this time, we are offering dual citizenship and land reserves to Diasporic Africans whose ancestors were sold.
The weight of this issue continues to rest on the shoulders of the European nations who went looking for bodies to harvest their fields and build their nations.
Please feel free to view UN Resolution 60/147.
Peace and blessings
HRG Princess Ademide Adinasse
daughter of the King of Ketu
Benin, West Africa
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, June 10, 2007 - 11:05 AMThe greater question is, who will pay reparations on the souls?
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, June 10, 2007 - 11:34 AM<<Africa, specifically, Benin Republic, where my father is a King>>
Uh, question. How is your father a King when Benin doesn't have a monarchy?
www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/6761.htm
www.traveldocs.com/bj/govern.htm
I'm just asking... -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 12:35 PMhow about the countrys that sold their own people into slavery pay up?...some countrys over the pond profited, and no one is going to them for money..oh thats right, those countrys have no money.
also, totally support anyone who wants to get their DNA analysed and banked to find out where they are really from....the gene pool in the U.S. has been mixed over and over in the last 200 years...
look at the south, Louisianna, where they have people (creoles) mixed with many races..
the spanish, french etc all kept slaves, will France and Spain or Mexico be paying reparations as well?
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 12:31 PMconsidering that NONE of us, including the slaves and the slave owners are even alive or have been dead for over 100 years...huh? What about any one of us who had ancestors who were slaves that were not black, howabout the chinese?, how about reperations for my family who had to share crop durring the dust bowl?, how about the slaves from mexico and canada...no sorry...
I dont think you can make things right, because the people that are alive now are benefiting from the death of their ancestors, and all of us are being punished. In otherwords its redistribution of wealth, money is not made in machines, any money that is paid out is coming from the tax payers........ -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, June 12, 2007 - 3:25 PMI am happy to report that although this is a complicated subject - and it is easy to avoid it by trying to distance oneself, it is not being ignored by the UUA. In fact, there are many workshops planned that addresses this very issue at GA next week. When I pulled up the UUA website a minute ago, there was an introduction to an essay written by a Unitarian Universalist minister. I clicked on it and read the full text detailing his journey into his past. To his shock, he found that he had relatives over 200 years ago who owned slaves and he believes one traded slaves. You can read his essay here: www.uua.org/news/newssub...s/23111.shtml
Reconciliation to historical misdeeds toward one group does not negate or diminish the misdeeds done to another group. No group in the US has been mistreated to the extent of Native Americans and African Americans. Does that mean that the US has been ethical hosts to all other groups? NO. Does it mean that we should ignore all misdeeds to other groups? NO. But, if a person slapped one person and killed another, it seems logical to address the the most horrific act first.
I'm fascinated by the idea that several vocal people on this list seem most interested in the money. If money were not a part of the conversation, would those same people be able to thoughtfully engage in what reconciliation means? I hope so, because we need everyone to be engaged in the conversation. The subject isn't going away. The UUA is making it clear that UU's take this subject seriously and intend to process how our country's wealth was made and ends up in a very few hands. It means taking inventory personally and collectively - being brave enough to look at hard truths. Check out the UUA website and the GA program. It is divided into multiple PDF files. I would recommend looking at the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday schedules to see what the workshops offered are. There's a list for the first few pages and then individual workshop write-ups that tell what the workshop will focus on, and a little background on the speaker. That link is: www.uua.org/events/gener...g/18214.shtml
It takes a lot of courage to be able to look at our individual and collective past. During that very thoughtful process, I trust that we as a religious body, as congregations and as a country will come to some form of concensus on what our best course is. In my opinion, it won't come from personally distinancing ourselves, making excuses or sweeping away the issue. We've been doing that for a long time and it's not working.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 13, 2007 - 4:48 AMthe UU church in nashville (where i attended and volunteered) hosted a white privilege conference with fisk university. i'll try to find the material and post here.
also, the place where i work just had a seminar on white privilege and it was very sobering.
i'm white and benefit from years of exploitation of other's labor even if i personally don't agree with it.
so yes, i'm for reparations. of course, money can't make up for exploitation but we can try. that is what the idea of restitution can mean. that we pay a price for something from which we should not have benefitted. how can we repay someone for our ancestors raping them, stealing their children and then denying it all? there are no white people in the us who have not benefitted from our racist history. if you think you haven't then you're operating under the biggest white privilege of all: denial!
in this way, i also believe that native americans deserve reparations for all the euros taking the land they were living on which they understood could only truly belong to mother earth.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 13, 2007 - 10:21 AMFirst let me state that I am for reparations for both Native Americans and African Americans. This aside...I think the matter is very complicated and needs to be evaluated not only from economics and emotions but from social, political, educational, psychological, statistical and humanitarian perspectives.
To view from one aspect only does not do the subject justice nor does it benefit anyone. There is no doubt that white privledge exists but, having said that, privledge has been given to other 'ethnicities' due to the contributions of both Native Americans and African Americans. As well...African Americans have benefitted from the losses of Native Americans and vice-versa. We have vast diversity in the US where there exist peoples who are mixes of various ethnicities which complicates the situation worse, not to mention those that have arrived on our soil at various points in history. Not everyone who is categorized as white owned a slave and not every African American had a relative who was a slave. Keeping in mind that categorizations have been arbitrary and have changed over history for various reasons.
My personal reasons for support of reparations have more to do with the knowledge that contributions were made and never acknowledged AND that disparity still exists where African Americans and Native Americans continue to suffer from inequality. We can set blame on a certain group of people or we can acknowledge that history (whther here or elsewhere) has been cruel to all of our ancestors and our ancestors have all been cruel to others whether it was owning a slave, participation in the crusades and inquisitions or holocausts. And then...we stop pointing fingers at someone's color of their skin and, instead do something about it.
Now...delving out money may seem a fair solution to some, however, one has to look at the current population in the US of those who claim African American heritage and native American heritage and then take a close look at costs. We can disgregard the financial aspect as irrelevant but the reality exists that the costs to justify could be astronimical given the population and something, somewhere is going to suffer. We can assume a 'Robin Hood' mentality but we would have to disregard personal experience, ethnicity, and accountability.
I don't know what the best solution is, perhaps it is education and opportunities. Money would be fleeting but empowerment thru education and opportunities is something that would last a lifetime and be able to be carried thru generations. Is this something the US does now?...yes...to a degree.... and this is where I feel we can improve greatly.
Guys...we really need to stop with the black vs. white theme or we continue to perpetuate a divide and that doesn't do anyone any good. As Unitarians we promote the grays but too often fail to see them ourselves. -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 13, 2007 - 10:03 PMI think the easy solution is everyone who wants to support this legislation, pull out their check books and write a check. Treat it as a tax deductable private charity.....the money is coming from yours and my pockets anyway...
then people can file claims for their money.
I personally am not going to write a check since I am only 2nd generation american and my ancestors had nothing to do with the slave trade...
in fact I bet over 50-75% of the people in america can fit into this category and shouldnt have to put their money in that pile. -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Wed, June 13, 2007 - 10:59 PMWhite people who have immigrated to this country benefit by preferential treatment for white people. White people who immigrate to the US 10 years from now will also benefit from the white privilege begun with the African slave history of this country. It's part of the deal - like it or not - when immigrating to this country. Immigrants don't get to check off any boxes about which part of the culture he or she wants part of and which ones he or she doesn't. Spend some time getting to understand what is meant by the term "white privilege".
It's really easy to ignore issues, sweep them under the rug, distance oneself, or bring up a lot of other issues to mask racism because it is unpleasant. If I wanted to, I could think of 50 reasons why "I" shouldn't have to do anything. That won't solve anything and is, in my opinion, the basis of many problems with racism in this country - an overt denial that it exists, that all of us with white skin benefit from it, and that we are collectively responsible for addressing it -IF- we want justice, -IF- we want things to improve.
IF we don't want anything to change - well, I think we are really good at that part.
The UUA is focusing a lot of energy on this issue. Other liberal organizations are, as well. It would probably benefit folks to read up on what's happening and what some of the points of the conversation are on a national basis. -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 3:34 PMAlisa, I think you're missing the point of what Sandy is saying. Attaching personal responsibility to a societal problem like slavery is something she and her ancestors did not participate in so she doesn't feel she should be forced to pay reparations. That's not turning a blind eye to white privilege it's a statement of fact. The same is true for me. Up until my mother and father moved to this country they lived outside Montreal. As far as I know, there were no slaves in Canada so I don't feel that I should be made to pay for the crimes of others. That doesn't mean I don't understand that I get the benefit of being able to rent any apartment I want, get any job I apply for, and get to walk into a department store and not get followed around by the staff because someone thinks I might attempt to steal something. I understand the white privilege I benefit from each and every day. I also understand that those who committed a crime should be the ones to make amends not parties who were not involved.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 9:28 AMThanks for posting, Kim. I do understand that this is the point of Sandy, you, Douglas and others. I strongly disagree with this position.
My point that it is similar to Germans and Swiss, (and Italian, I think -but could be wrong) who have nationally been held accountable for killing and stealing the possessions of Jews during WW ll. Every single German, Swiss, Italian person was not in uniform. Every single one of them did not point a gun at a Jewish person. However, everyone of them (who were not Jewish) benefited by the killing and stealing of everything that Jewish people had. The entire country was held up by the international community to be culpable. To say - well my family just recently immigrated was considered ludicrous to the international community. Also, a generation or so had passed.
Whereas it sounds like a really rational exception - not me, I didn't do anything - it sounds like splitting hairs to the rest of the international community and to people who are still oppressed in this country. To suggest this argument is an example of white privilege in my opinion.
It sounds like, "I didn't do anything to cause white privilege because of recent immigration history, though I benefit from it" somehow excuses benefiting from the oppression of others?! All of us who are white are all part of white privilege - it is involuntary. The oppression of African-Americans did not end with slavery.
Similarly, it is not a choice for non-white skinned people to avoid being harmed by white privilege. Whether a person of color immigrated recently or not, the cop pulling them over for "driving while black" is basing that decision on color of skin - not on date of immigration, ancestor slave status, or any other technicality. As a white driver, happy that I wasn't the one stopped. I could drive by - not my problem. My family immigrated within the last 100 years.
Sandy, Kim others - have you looked at the UUA website? Have you done any research on what white privilege means as a political sense? Or are you speaking from your own personal experience and understanding of these terms? I'm not saying that you are wrong - I am saying that there is an intense discussion going on within the UUA and nationally that is certainly more articulate than I am. It might be interesting to you to hear what our religious movement has to say.
The UUA recently sent out a 25 page Adobe Acrobat document to all delegates of the 2007 GA addressing the racist/ageist events at the Ft.Worth GA in 2005. If anyone wants to see it, I'll send it to you. -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 1:30 PM"Sandy, Kim others - have you looked at the UUA website? Have you done any research on what white privilege means as a political sense? Or are you speaking from your own personal experience and understanding of these terms? I'm not saying that you are wrong - I am saying that there is an intense discussion going on within the UUA and nationally that is certainly more articulate than I am. It might be interesting to you to hear what our religious movement has to say. "
Alisa,
I will look into the UUA website and read what the UUA's stance is on this issue but just because I identify myself as a UU that does not mean that I espouse each and every viewpoint of the UUA. After all being a UU is about hearing different viewpoints and arriving at our own conclusions and truths, is it not? For the record, yes, I feel that this point in time I have a pretty good understanding of what white privilege means across the board. I've done research in a graduate level class on teaching in urban settings, done extensive reading on the subject (Jonathan Kozol and Beverly Daniel Tatum to name a few), taught in an elementary school that was extremely diverse where I had to get used to being in the minority as a white woman, and I live and work in a city where African Americans are the majority and many live in conditions of extreme poverty because of a public education system that has failed them in every sense of the word. So know I don't know all there is to know about white privilege at this point, but I have a pretty good idea.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, June 18, 2007 - 11:02 PMpersonal experiences...many as a matter of fact..
I do not think religious movements have a place in politics..you know..that "separation of church and state" kind of thing?
so maybe the question should be posed..."do you or do you not want separation of church and state?" unless it helps your cause?
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Fri, June 15, 2007 - 2:22 PMAlisa: Every single one of them did not point a gun at a Jewish person. However, everyone of them (who were not Jewish) benefited by the killing and stealing of everything that Jewish people had. The entire country was held up by the international community to be culpable
I have to interject here by saying this is not true. The whole entire populations of Germany, Switzerland and Italy did not benefit from the Jews. Many Germans, Swiss and Italians were persecuted during the Nazi reign along with the Jews and entire regions of these countries were destroyed in the fall out. Many of these populations were victims to their regimes and the Nazis. The large majority of the populations did not profit but suffered greatly. The riches were for an elite few.
The problem with this analogy is the use of generalizations. They are invariably inaccurate and can never be proven. We can talk about how anyone with fair skin is better off because of privilege but then we must make grand assumptions and to do so brings in to question the concept of what racial discrimination is. It is never acceptable to be so passionate that the pendulum swings in the other direction. What we do know is that for a large period of time, those with fairer skin were afforded opportunities others were not...our economic status is directly affected by this whether those opportunities were afforded to us, our parents or our grandparents. In todays world, opportunities could go in either direction though based on affirmative action and those who make the decisions that will impact us as individuals and collectively. We may or may not have our jobs and educational opportunities due to our appearance...there is simply no way to gauge this. This is not to say white privilege does not exist, it does...but not for everyone and not every time. Nor should everyone be held blame. Should we all be held accountable...not in a fair world but the reality exists that there is still much work to be done. There is a huge economic issue in theis country and tere is a huge issue that exists with discrimination. The only way to stop this is to do this collectively.
I found an article with an interesting perspective from our UUA:
archive.uua.org/ga/ga99/238thandeka.html
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, June 18, 2007 - 10:31 PMVery interesting article - thank you for posting the link.
I, too am frustrated with some of the anti-racist curriculum. Thandeka presents another approach. There are a lot of articulate UU's and other liberals who have different takes on how to address issues of unfairness in our world. I think that we can all learn from reading and discussing a wide variety of points of view. In one article, she cannot address all areas and all concerns. I have some, "What about this and this and etc., etc.," that come to mind when I was reading her article.
We are all responsible to work out what we believe and what we feel compelled to do. I would recommend reading Thandeka's article and the articles and books of others as well. The issue is complicated and I don't have all the answers, but I am very suspicious of white people wanting to justify why he or she is not affected, not a participant and absolving whites of any responsibility. For me, that's a major white privilege example.
The doctrine of Liberation Theology, for example is compelling to me.
I fully, whole-heartedly agree with one of Thandeka's main points in that when a society works at keeping one segment of the society oppressed, it negatively impacts all of society - but not in the same way. It's one tool, among others of those in power to divide and conquer.
It would seem that economic success is the most significant indicator for her point of view. However, there are many others that are just as important, in my opinion, such as legal protections, education and health care.
There are statistical differences that Thandeka's article leaves out. For example, adjusting to account for economic status, the life span of African Americans is significantly lower than that of whites. I've worked in health care, so I'm most familiar with access to prevention, diagnosis and treatment of medical conditions. All of these are severely less accessible, less utilized and more expensive for African Americans than for whites - again, regardless of income.
Growing up in the south and working in poor neighborhoods, I have seen many, many current racial injustices. So, they are relevant today - now. These things are still occurring. About 12 years ago, I lived in South Florida. A new high school was needed in a community that was poor, mostly African American in a rural agricultural area of the county. They built the high school between the State Prison and the county dump - you could look out of one side of the building and see the prison, and out the other side and see the dump. On the opposite side of the county, is one of the wealthiest communities in the country. I think this is a classic example of environmental racism.
Other examples are everywhere. New Orleans and the aftermath of recovery is another ripe example.
So, I disagree that the playing field is level now and everyone is treated equally, regardless of race and it's just a class issue. I would like for that to be the case - it seems that that would some how be progress. But, there is too much evidence to the contrary.
The question for me is not "Is there a problem?" It's a matter of understanding the problem.
Not "Are there racial injustices currently that resulted from our history since slavery?" I think we should be trying to more fully understand what those injustices are, how African Americans are still affected by them and how the rest of us are still affected by them.
Not "Should racial disparities be addressed?" I would be happier with a discussion of HOW they should they be addressed.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 10:11 PMin Civil Service and Postal service, this is an untruth. I have experienced reverse preferential treatment and have been on oral boards where the lowest scorers have been given preferential treatment because they were not white., so unless you can say you have been in that situation.. -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 10:14 PMand by the way...I am all for equal opportunity under the law...not affirmative action.... because, if we are supposed to be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skin...(MLK quote) then we have to go with content of character...
I have a postal carrier who just learned to speak english 2 years ago and is just now learning how to read the address labels correctly.. -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 11:06 PMoh please content of character instead of affirmative action? bush got affirmative action not because of his character but because he was the son of a white man who went to yale. that's affirmative action but nobody calls it that because it benefits rich white people.
i'm always amazed by those who say they are against affirmative action; they usually don't want it for persons of color but you don't see them protesting at harvard and other ivy colleges who use affirmative action (but don't call it that) to privilege the sons and daughters of the white elite.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 9:34 PMinstead of paying money to people who dont need it because they are dead. why dont we work on paying money to poorer schools. like cleaning up the projects. or funding a music program at a school that had to get it cut because they dont have money. and just a question is the "priveleged white people who seem to be every white person in america" paying these reparations going to do? and how do european americans benefit from everything. ive seen plenty of white people without money and living just the same as any other race immigrant or not. -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Thu, June 14, 2007 - 9:35 PMsorry privilege
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, June 17, 2007 - 5:45 PMFrederick Douglass, "What to the Slave is the Fourth of
July?"
5 July 1852
Occasion: Meeting sponsored by the Rochester Ladies'
Anti-Slavery Society, Rochester Hall, Rochester, N.Y.
To illustrate the full shame of slavery, Douglass
delivered a speech that took aim at the pieties of the
nation -- the cherished memories of its revolution, its
principles of liberty, and its moral and religious
foundation. The Fourth of July, a day celebrating
freedom, was used by Douglass to remind his audience of
liberty's unfinished business.
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What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?
Mr. President, Friends and Fellow Citizens: He who
could address this audience without a quailing
sensation, has stronger nerves than I have. I do not
remember ever to have appeared as a speaker before any
assembly more shrinkingly, nor with greater distrust of
my ability, than I do this day. A feeling has crept
over me, quite unfavorable to the exercise of my
limited powers of speech. The task before me is one
which requires much previous thought and study for its
proper performance. I know that apologies of this sort
are generally considered flat and unmeaning. I trust,
however, that mine will not be so considered. Should I
seem at ease, my appearance would much misrepresent me.
The little experience I have had in addressing public
meetings, in country school houses, avails me nothing
on the present occasion.
The papers and placards say, that I am to deliver a 4th
[of] July oration. This certainly sounds large, and out
of the common way, for it is true that I have often had
the privilege to speak in this beautiful Hall, and to
address many who now honor me with their presence. But
neither their familiar faces, nor the perfect gage I
think I have of Corinthian Hall, seems to free me from
embarrassment.
The fact is, ladies and gentlemen, the distance between
this platform and the slave plantation, from which I
escaped, is considerable --and the difficulties to be
overcome in getting from the latter to the former, are
by no means slight. That I am here to-day is, to me, a
matter of astonishment as well as of gratitude. You
will not, therefore, be surprised, if in what I have to
say, I evince no elaborate preparation, nor grace my
speech with any high sounding exordium. With little
experience and with less learning, I have been able to
throw my thoughts hastily and imperfectly together; and
trusting to your patient and generous indulgence, I
will proceed to lay them before you.
"May [the reformer] not hope that high lessons of
wisdom, of justice and of truth, will yet give
direction to her destiny? Were the nation older, the
patriot's heart might be sadder, and the reformer's
brow heavier. . . . There is consolation in the thought
that America is young."
This, for the purpose of this celebration, is the 4th
of July. It is the birthday of your National
Independence, and of your political freedom. This, to
you, is what the Passover was to the emancipated people
of God. It carries your minds back to the day, and to
the act of your great deliverance; and to the signs,
and to the wonders, associated with that act, and that
day. This celebration also marks the beginning of
another year of your national life; and reminds you
that the Republic of America is now 76 years old. I am
glad, fellow-citizens, that your nation is so young.
Seventy-six years, though a good old age for a man, is
but a mere speck in the life of a nation. Three score
years and ten is the allotted time for individual men;
but nations number their years by thousands. According
to this fact, you are, even now, only in the beginning
of your national career, still lingering in the period
of childhood. I repeat, I am glad this is so.
There is hope in the thought, and hope is much needed, under
the dark clouds which lower above the horizon. The eye of
the reformer is met with angry flashes, portending
disastrous times; but his heart may well beat lighter
at the thought that America is young, and that she is
still in the impressible stage of her existence. May he
not hope that high lessons of wisdom, of justice and of
truth, will yet give direction to her destiny? Were the
nation older, the patriot's heart might be sadder, and
the reformer's brow heavier. Its future might be
shrouded in gloom, and the hope of its prophets go out
in sorrow.
There is consolation in the thought that America is young.
Great streams are not easily turned from channels, worn deep
in the course of ages. They may sometimes rise in quiet and
stately majesty, and inundate the land, refreshing and
fertilizing the earth with their mysterious properties. They
may also rise in wrath and fury, and bear away, on their
angry waves, the accumulated wealth of years of toil and
hardship.
They, however, gradually flow back to the same old
channel, and flow on as serenely as ever. But, while
the river may not be turned aside, it may dry up, and
leave nothing behind but the withered branch, and the
unsightly rock, to howl in the abyss-sweeping wind, the
sad tale of departed glory. As with rivers so with
nations.
Fellow-citizens, I shall not presume to dwell at length
on the associations that cluster about this day. The
simple story of it is that, 76 years ago, the people of
this country were British subjects. The style and title
of your "sovereign people" (in which you now glory) was
not then born. You were under the British Crown . Your
fathers esteemed the English Government as the home
government; and England as the fatherland. This home
government, you know, although a considerable distance
from your home, did, in the exercise of its parental
prerogatives, impose upon its colonial children, such
restraints, burdens and limitations, as, in its mature
judgement, it deemed wise, right and proper.
But, your fathers, who had not adopted the fashionable
idea of this day, of the infallibility of government,
and the absolute character of its acts, presumed to
differ from the home government in respect to the
wisdom and the justice of some of those burdens and
restraints. They went so far in their excitement as to
pronounce the measures of government unjust,
unreasonable, and oppressive, and altogether such as
ought not to be quietly submitted to. I scarcely need
say, fellow-citizens, that my opinion of those measures
fully accords with that of your fathers. Such a
declaration of agreement on my part would not be worth
much to anybody. It would, certainly, prove nothing, as
to what part I might have taken, had I lived during the
great controversy of 1776. To say now that America was
right, and England wrong, is exceedingly easy.
Everybody can say it; the dastard, not less than the
noble brave, can flippantly discant on the tyranny of
England towards the American Colonies. It is
fashionable to do so; but there was a time when to
pronounce against England, and in favor of the cause of
the colonies, tried men's souls. They who did so were
accounted in their day, plotters of mischief, agitators
and rebels, dangerous men. To side with the right,
against the wrong, with the weak against the strong,
and with the oppressed against the oppressor! here lies
the merit, and the one which, of all others, seems
unfashionable in our day. The cause of liberty may be
stabbed by the men who glory in the deeds of your
fathers. But, to proceed.
Feeling themselves harshly and unjustly treated by the
home government, your fathers, like men of honesty, and
men of spirit, earnestly sought redress. They
petitioned and remonstrated; they did so in a decorous,
respectful, and loyal manner. Their conduct was wholly
unexceptionable. This, however, did not answer the
purpose. They saw themselves treated with sovereign
indifference, coldness and scorn. Yet they persevered.
They were not the men to look back.
As the sheet anchor takes a firmer hold, when the ship
is tossed by the storm, so did the cause of your
fathers grow stronger, as it breasted the chilling
blasts of kingly displeasure. The greatest and best of
British statesmen admitted its justice, and the
loftiest eloquence of the British Senate came to its
support. But, with that blindness which seems to be the
unvarying characteristic of tyrants, since Pharaoh and
his hosts were drowned in the Red Sea, the British
Government persisted in the exactions complained of.
The madness of this course, we believe, is admitted
now, even by England; but we fear the lesson is wholly
lost on our present rulers.
Oppression makes a wise man mad. Your fathers were wise
men, and if they did not go mad, they became restive
under this treatment. They felt themselves the victims
of grievous wrongs, wholly incurable in their colonial
capacity. With brave men there is always a remedy for
oppression. Just here, the idea of a total separation
of the colonies from the crown was born! It was a
startling idea, much more so, than we, at this distance
of time, regard it. The timid and the prudent (as has
been intimated) of that day, were, of course, shocked
and alarmed by it.
for the complete text on-line, go to
douglass.speech.nwu.edu/doug_a10.htm
-------------------------------------------------------
Where the text can be found: The speech was originally
published as a pamphlet. It can be located in James M.
Gregory's, Frederick Douglass, the Orator (1893). More
recent publications of the speech include Philip
Foner's, The Life and Writings of Frederick Douglass
(1950) and The Frederick Douglass Papers (1982), edited
by John W. Blassingame.
Prepared by: D. L. Oetting
Accepted: 1 September 1996
Last updated: 15 May 2002
Copyright © 1997-2002 Douglass Archives. All rights
reserved.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Sun, August 12, 2007 - 10:08 PMNormally I just lurk here, but I could not resist this topic.
It seems we are discussing two issues simultaneously, and allowing them to blur. First, are we, as a nation, morally culpable for the institution of slavery? Second, if so, are we, as a nation, legally liable for financial reparations in payment for the wealth and infrastructure which resulted from slavery?
I do believe we are morally culpable. If you want moral justice, you've come to right place. Unitarian Universalism is the epicenter of white, liberal guilt. We're sorry. Real sorry. So very, very sorry. Words can't described the level of guilt we feel. It's quite appalling, really, how guilty we feel. We're sorry if how guilty we feel is making anyone else feel bad. We don't mean to do that. It's just the excrutiating guilt talking. We wish we were in sack cloths and ashes... well, no, not really because it's hard to find sack cloth that wasn't made by exploited labor in developing countries, but you get the idea. We think about our guilt it every time we go to Whole Foods and pay the African American cashier for our organic produce. In fact, we feel guilty almost all the time about almost everything.
There. Feel better? Did that feeling of guilt rehab an inner city school? Did it develop a decent mass transit system in rural areas? Did it provide addiction treatment facilities? More equitable drug laws? Did it save New Orleans? Did it stop the war in Iraq? Moral reparations, anti-racism colloquia, and statements of public concern are all very nice and good, but aside from salving liberal consciences (and using up energy which could be used creating real change) what tangible good do they accomplish?
As posed in the original posting, the issue is not one of moral reparations, but rather cold hard cash. It is a question of public policy not moral culpability. Should we, as a nation, transfer X trillions of dollars from one group in this country to another? It's been said that the money is in payment for white privilege. Does that mean that with the transfer white privilege then becomes okay? After all, it has then been paid for.
Imagine how most white folks would view the reparations: "Here's your weregild, African American friends, co-workers, neighbors, lovers and spouses. We're done. Our forebears did terrible things to your forebears. We are not going to say we're sorry, because the average American really kind of isn't. But, instead here is X trillions of dollars. In exchange, though, we expect something for our money. First some historical re-writes: never mention slavery again except in the most abstract and morally detached way, please. Like, for example, when reading aloud from Georgia census tract data from 1840. Also, the Civil War was fought over tariffs and states' rights, not slavery. George Wallace was kind of a nice guy in his dotage, and not just a hateful lunatic with a bad dye job. No more white guilt. No more complaints about racism, please. We owe you for white privilege? Consider it paid. Deal is, we give you the money, you give us the white privilege. Here's your check. Don't spend it all in one place. Oh, and please stop saying we smell like wet dogs. Thank you for the continuing privilege, thank you for shutting up about racism, and have a nice day."
Tell me that is not how it would play out in the real world of public opinion. Okay, now try it with a straight face. If reparations ever got passed, anti-racism work would be set back fifty years. "Affirmative action? We paid you for that. Desegregation in the schools? But we already paid for the guilt thing. 1964 Civil Rights Act? What, did somebody forget to pay the privilege bill this month?"
No amount of money can ever change what happened. No amount of money can change the way things are. No amount of money can make modern racism okay. When specific and provable damages are done to a plaintiff, current civil rights laws and standard tort law can, and regularly do, provide remedy and recompense.
Only when people have a change of heart can they change the world, not when they are fined for refusing to change it.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, August 13, 2007 - 7:26 AMThe second problem I have with reparations is purely practical: who pays and who gets paid?
In my case, I have one ancestor, my grandmother's grandmother, who was born in Charleston, SC. In census records from 1860, she was listed as a "colored servant", meaning she was a slave. There was no adult male servant listed for the household, though her mother was listed. My family assumes she was of mixed blood because of what happened next. After the war she seems to have moved to Baltimore, because she is listed there in the 1870 census as a young mullatto. In the 1880 census, she is listed in Harrisburg, PA, as a white woman, with a white husband and children. Family lore had always said she was a "Half Seminole Indian from Florida and half Italian, that's why she looked so dark."
Clearly she jumped the color line in the confusion of reconstruction.
Now, that makes me 1/16th of slave ancestry, perhaps as much as 1/32nd black. Now, before you scoff at such a tenuous bloodline, remember that several states (LA, FL, AL, etc.) still technically have the one drop rule on the books. Legally, in Florida, I am black.
And as far as white privilege, she was never able to fully claim that white privilege, because she had to live a lie. Her children never knew their extended families, never sat on their maternal grandmother's knee. Their mother throughout her life refused to be photographed. My family only has one picture of her, from a group shot at one of her daughters' wedding. Presumably she was afraid a photograph would provide damning evidence and raise eyebrows in the future. My own grandmother was told by her family to not take prospective suitors to meet her grandmother until the engagement was cemented. What must that have done to her? Is that why my Nana was always so insistent (almost obsessively) on meeting all of her own grandchildren's friends and romantic partners? Was she afraid of being swept under the rug like her own grandmother? this in no way compares to the experience of a learly black person trying to hail a cab in Manhattan, but it does reverberate down through the generations.
Because of the one drop rule and the Mestizo-ization which has gone on through the centuries in the US, it is very, very hard to define race. And without a good working definition of race, how can payments possibly be raised and distributed?
If every full blooded descendent of a slave were to receive, say, 10,000 dollars, would I receive $625? Or would a fund be created for every slave alive on the first Juneteenth, with the funds being equally distributed among all their descendents? But, how many records survived the Civil War? How many people jumped the color line? I, along with many "white" Americans have ancestors who owned slaves, ancestors who were slaves and ancestors who were not here at the time.
Some of my ancestors are Portugues, a nation heavily involved in the slave trade. I have no reason to believe my ancestors were involved; by all accounts they were dirt poor fishermen in the Azores. But do I owe extra because of that, and do I owe less because there is some Alsatian in there too, a region not known for it's Atlantic trading? If I owe, then why don't Portugues in Portugal pony up? How about Someone whose father is full blooded, 100% desended from slaves, and whose mother is fully descended from slave owners (a not at all impossible thing in the South) do the two bloodlines cancel one another out? Does that person write a check out to cash and treat themselves to a very nice dinner? Does Lenny Kravitz owe money or is he owed? How about GK Butterworth? And, what about African-Americans with sub-Saharan African blood whose ancestors were not here for slavery? Does Barack Obama owe money or is he owed?
Bottom line, using modern sensibilities of justice and legal fairness, it is not possible to adequately define race, therefore any form of race based reparations are simply impracticable. If the discussion of reparations is to continue, I would first like to hear someone state in very precise terms who is paying how much and to whom.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Tue, August 14, 2007 - 8:59 PMI agree . . excellent thoughts. I too thought the discussions merged the idea of reparations with white priviledge, and although the two are historically part of our culture, I don't think white priviledge can be used to justify reparations for slavery. The argument for reparations should stand on it's own merits, while we all work toward a more equitable society.
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Mon, August 13, 2007 - 7:41 AMBoth posts have excellent points for thought. Thanks. -
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 9:15 AM
I am against US slave reparations. I just feel that it would stir a lot of negative feelings and even cause more racism. That's the last thing that I want. We already have affirmative action which also controversial. US Slave reparations is even more controversial.
I am mixed Black,Portuguese,English,German,French,Italian,Puerto Rican,Native American,and German. Therefore, I am multiethnic with some black. I don't want to use my black ancestry to get money from people. I didn't believe in taking advantage of affirmative action.
I don't believe in taking advantage of US slave reparations either.
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Reparations: Let the Punishment fit the Crime
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 5:31 PMUnequivocally, yes! But the financial benefit cannot be linked to pain and suffering (though that's important from a humanistic standpoint). It
They deserve repartations because of the huge positive impact that they had on our economy as a fledgling Nation. Ours is the strongest economy in the world because it was built on the backs of African Americans, and upon the bodies of Native Americans.
Consider this: you have two brothers. They are both told to go out into the world and make their way. One works very hard through life and develops a modest amount of capital. The other, as soon as he leaves home, carjacks someone. Because he has legal immunity he is allowed to keep the car and not prosecuted. Emboldened, he performs a home invasion of a multi-million dollar mansion and is also allowed to keep that (immunity again!) and is not held responsible for the violence. Even more emboldened, he engages in human trafficking, forcing people to work at his company for free! He passes not only his wealth but his sadistic ways of garnering capital down to his family for generations and they engage in the same sorry practices. After a couple of hundred years, the laws change and home invasions, human trafficking and car jacking are all made illegal, even to his line. But the extended family has amassed enough wealth, at the expense of others, to live off of the interest, not touching the principle. Though they no longer engage in violence, his family establishes a framework that subverts others opportunities at every turn.....making opportunities for his family that much greater. And then, when it is all said and done, they point at others and say......"What's the matter with you? My great-great-great-great grandfather came to this country with nothing....he worked very and look what he left us when he died!
America is that second brother. Through genocide (Natives), slavery (Africans) and treachery (Chinese) we took this land and had others sew the seeds and build the infrastructure. Which brings us to the bottom line: perhaps the punishment (reparations) should fit the following crimes.
a) Genocide: Everyone in our nation now resides on land that women and babies not so long ago were killed for so they could have it. So perhaps there should be a sin tax on land (the non-dwelling portion of your real estate) that goes to every Native American descendant. The tax can be almost unnoticable to the "owner" and still have a gigantic impact. Everyone(yes, everyone-even Natives) will pay because it has nothing to do with guilt but everything to do with ill gotten gains. That's because if you live in America and pay real estate tax you benefit from the genocide that was completed only in the twentieth century.
b) Slavery: "It's the economy, stupid." Since we would not be the world's biggest economy if our founders had not thought it was OK to buy and sell humans to fatten our pockets, there should be an EXPORT tax on everything (paper clips to aircraft carriers) that our nation sells abroad to be given to descendants of slaves. Again, extremely small, nano amounts would make a huge difference.
c) Slavery-in-Kind: Since so many Chinese Americans died building our infrastructure (railroads) it's important to acknowledge that they too paid the ultimate sacrifice so that the US government could spread itself from "sea to shining sea." Tax all of the rail shipments, again, an almost unnoticable amount and it pays huge dividends.
These are "voluntary" taxes because they are not linked to income tax. Don't like the tax that goes to Natives? Great! Don't own real estate and your OK. Don't like paying a couple of pennies extra for ground freight for descendants of Chinese rail workers? NO PROBLEM. Send your stuff airmail. Finally, don't like that everything your business sells overseas has an inconsequetial percentage of tax to help victims of American slavery (followed by Jim Crowe) to get equalized? That's easy....keep your customer base domestic.
Before you say this is going to far, think about how much you love your family and reflect on how many families were torn apart and even destroyed by these evil practices driven by greed. Daughters, sold for their little bodies to be used up. Sons, forced to rape women to "sire" more slaves. Mothers and fathers crying when their children were born because they knew what they would be subjected to. Slaughter of entire tribes of women and children in the name of "Manifest Destiny." Now, consider this: England, France and Belgium left their colonies in Africa as late as the 1960's. The only reason we did not suffer the same fate in this colony that is America is that we killed all (well, 98%) indigenous inhabitants that had a legitimate right to this land (there were just as many Natives in North America as South America.) I'd rather we pay now than pay later. Until America pays pennance, we won't mature as a nation. Nothing is best beloved in the sight of God as justice. I'd rather pick the "poison."
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Re: Should the US pay slave Reparations for Slavery?
Fri, June 26, 2009 - 11:09 PMIf you were to examine the historical horrors and everlasting impact of the Slave Trade, the correct answer is YES. Black Americans, who are the descendants of slaves, are entitled to reparations in every fashionable sense of the word. The American Empire, as well as Europe, was built off the misery, torture, rape, exploitation, robbery and quite frankly GENOCIDE of its unpaid African slaves. America is only a wealthy and prosperous superpower because of Slavery, and I dare anyone to deny this. I understand that you (White Americans) didn't actually own slaves or perpetrate their state of existence, yet you are greatly BENEFITTING from the untold suffering of African peoples while the masses of their children (descendants) are the most oppressed group within America today. The same goes for white immigrants who were welcomed into America with open arms and piggybacked off her success accredited to Slavery.
Also, that present day blacks did not experience Slavery so therefore should receive no reparations is an ignorant belief. It is almost like telling a son whose deceased father who was robbed of 100K (capital), that because he is not the man who was directly robbed, he therefore isn't entitled to regain the capital of his dead robbed father. The son has every right to regain his father’s goods because wealth is passed down. Is this not what the America constitution states within the Fourteenth Amendment? There are many cases where children force their fathers' wives to court to prevent them from gaining what they feel is rightfully theirs; Whereas the wives in our scenario is America, who has unrightfully taken the wealth and used it to benefit herself and other men (countries), while we suffer. There are many more examples I can mention to draw the bigger picture, but hopefully you'll get the point.
I've also heard arguments that Africa should pay for reparations since in fact there were some blacks who sold others into Slavery. Although this is true this is also irrelevant and seems like an attempt to take the attention off one's self. While I do acknowledge that some blacks participated in Slavery, I will say one thing; Africa has by no means prospered off the Black Holocaust in the extent that America and Europe have, and unlike both of these wicked nations, Africa has taken reparations into consideration and is making plans to advance these considerations as we speak. It is also widely known that (white) Americans of European ancestry were the leading fathers and perpetrators of American Slavery. In fact, before whites began in openly kidnapping blacks from Africa, they would lie to the blacks by telling them that America, then called the "new world", was a place where they could make more gold for their labor and live far better lives than they did in Africa. This lie of course persuaded some Africans to willingly travel to America and was quite successful for the first few decades of Slavery until the Africans realized their brothers had gone missing. But returning to the topic, Africa has already proposed for reparations and this should lead those of you who raised this argument to question why hasn't America and Europe done the same? The American government made special indemnity payments, provided land and social service benefits to Japanese-Americans interned during World War II, Native-Americans for the theft of lands and mineral rights, and Philippine veterans who fought with the American army during World War II. Why can't she do the same for the Black world who underwent the most atrocious crime of all these groups and continues to suffer as a direct result of this? The fact that America can give reparations to every race but the black race, who single-handedly BIRTHED and defended this country with centuries of unpaid, unthinkable labor only to be treated as "animals", just proves to me that America is indeed racist. And any white man or woman who is willing to publicly oppose issues like animal abuse, abortion, homophobia, etc, but won't speak out against America's denial of REPAIRations to the Black community, is indeed racist as well.
As for reparations being in the form of cash, I could not disagree more. First of all, there is not ANY amount of cash that can equate to the suffering Africans experienced during the Black holocaust. It is actually very offensive to put a price on a person’s personal affliction, especially to the children of the one who was afflicted. Imagine if your mother, a doctor, was raped, hanged, burned, and shot by her patient while pregnant, and her patient offered to pay you a billion bucks to keep quiet, or “get well.” Would you accept the offer? You probably won’t. However, suppose you were that unborn child who miraculously survived the tragedy forced upon the mother, and as a result of being within the womb when your mother was taken from you, you suffer from a long list of bodily, social and psychological dysfunctions. Now suppose her patient took you into his custody, where he raised you to behave exactly like him, taught you nothing about your mother, mistreated and abused you; Now the day arrives when you discover the murder he committed, how much an impact it had on your being, how much he continues to mistreat you, and most of all, the good health he experiences because of his doctor, your mother. Would you, the burned, tarnished, asthmatic and abused “child” of this patient, not feel obligated to repair your damages using the resources or health insurance of the man who is responsible for your condition yet enjoys strength that should’ve been yours?
The unborn child is clearly the Black descendants of slaves in America today. Even further, America OWES her slaves an enormous compensation. This compensation should be in no form other than LAND, or separate territory for the descendants of the men and women who built this empire and got nothing in return. The essential requirement for freedom and independence of any kind is LAND; a group of people can't say they are free if they don't have their own land. Land is foundation for food, clothing, and shelter and is absolutely necessary for survival. This is why when Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation he promised the slaves "40 acres of LAND and a mule." He knew that Blacks in America would never truly be free unless they had somewhere they could call their own. If the Black people in America who are the descendants of slaves had their own land, where they governed, worked, taught and established themselves without the hindrance and interference of white supremacy, within time, I’m almost certain many of their issues would begin to lose color.
Let’s also never forget that Blacks were brought into America to serve and to benefit the dominant group (whites). So when people speak of spending reparations of untold trillions on education reform, job opportunities, economic balancing what they don't realize is how that would only be using our resources to benefit and serve the white American empire, instead of requesting some territory to benefit and serve ourselves first, as every logical thinking people do. Even the Jews, who are not even a real race, have acquired a country they can call their own after the world saw their holocaust, which was like a walk in the park compared to ours. Every man who comes to the cities of America can brag, rejoice and celebrate his OWN COUNTRY - everyone but the Blacks in America who believe America is their country while everyone else knows it's not. I also feel that America is absolutely obligated to provide this land, seeing as to how her existence is largely owing to her black slaves who have already paid the price. Granting land to the Black people in America who are descendants of slaves would be the greatest deed America has ever done for Blacks.